Welsh complaining, again!

BBC NEWS | UK | Welsh dragon call for Union flag

The union jack should be combined with the Welsh flag, according to an MP who wants the change to be made to reflect Wales’ status within the UK.

One minute the Welsh are complaining about independence, the next they want the Welsh Dragon stamped on the Union Flag (that neither the Welsh nor the Scottish fly anyway). Personally I find this insulting and a little late, they have had hundreds of years to complain about this, it is too late now.

The reason that the Welsh have not been represented on the Union flag is that it is the flag of the United Kingdoms of Scotland, England and Ireland. Wales has been a principality for centuries, the Queen is Monarch of England, Scotland and Ireland, not Wales.

Besides if we start this silliness now with the Welsh where will it end? There are more Muslims in the UK than Welsh, does that mean that next we should have passages from the Qu’ran on the flag? Perhaps when Wales starts pulling its weight economically in the Union they will earn the right to complain about things like this, as it is Wales is on an economic par with countries like Angola and Libya. Scotland on the other hand is up there with the likes of Venezuela, the UAE and Portugal. Contrast that with England, who, without Scotland and Wales, would be the sixth richest country in the world.

So to be honest Wales’ status within the Union is fairly reflected, the Union Jack has red on it, and to be fair, the Welsh should be glad of even that. When Wales is up there with the likes of Switzerland, Holland and Belgium economically, then I will also join the call to have the Welsh dragon on the Union flag. In fact should that happen, I would even agree to something like this:

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50 responses to “Welsh complaining, again!

  1. Generally your comments are correct and being welsh myself I agree with them with the exception of your economical facts! Where did you get your factual statistical data from? Have you considered the basic concepts gross product per person? or who are the main generators of wealth within England and Wales. Personally I am glad and proud that Wales has its own flag and does not have to share it with other nations; bit like the fact that all the other nations within the United Kingdom have their own National Anthem with the exception of England!

    • I find it highly OFFENSIVE seeing that monstrosity of the Union Jack with the Pride of Wales, I am a devout patriot of Wales and would defend my heritage and country, it is bad enough having to share our island with a bunch of inbreeds and yes i mean the Royal family the Heinz 57 variety which not one of them have the right to be called our royal family. The so called Queen of England it is about time she gave the throne up and take that dip shit she Calls her husband with her but the only problem with that is being left with a liar called prince Charles how would look as a nation that has a liar as a figure head, with a woman beside him that has a face horse. Just feel sorry for his sons having to put up with that crap. Then don’t start on then the english ministers especially Margret Twatcher she is no pussy but fucked Wales totally

      • I find it highly OFFENSIVE seeing that monstrosity of the Union Jack with the Pride of Wales, I am a devout patriot of Wales and would defend my heritage and country,

        You love your country that much but you no longer live there? Or are you just on holiday? Perhaps if the Welsh had all defended their heritage a little harder then you wouldn’t have this Royal Family, or the Union Jack flying from your buildings. Incidentally, the Royal Family are Welsh, descended from the Twydors (Tudors) who, if I remember correctly, were pretty much all illegitimate, a proud tradition that the Welsh keep going to this day. So yes, they are more yours than the English.

        with a woman beside him that has a face horse.

        I’m fairly sure that in Wales, she’d be quite a looker.

        Then don’t start on then the english ministers especially Margret Twatcher she is no pussy but fucked Wales totally

        You seem that is the problem with the Welsh, they see themselves as really important. More than twice as many people live in London, as in the whole of Wales, yet the Welsh seem to think that they should get special treatment. Wales is just a sparsely populated province of Britain, more people live in the West Midlands, yet the Welsh get their own language, parliament, masses of English taxes and still complain. Being Welsh is nothing special.

  2. Thanks for the comment Ian, the economical stats were from the CIA world fact book, from a list of countries based on GDP.

  3. Right Charlie! Thanks for clearing that one up. Question? is this the same CIA that gave the world the intelligence on WDM’s in Iraq and can’t find Bin laden?

  4. Kicked your asses twice and you still run your mouths like schoolgirls. I’m Welsh descent…from 1600s came to new world…thank God or I’d be a whiny bi-atch like you blooooaaaaks.

    It’s WMDs, not WDM’s, stupid. And we found plenty but the liberal press wouldn’t press it. Meanwhile you wankers are being shagged by mooooslims and soon to be their eunuchs. Get used to living with no balls and a dick up your ass…it’s coming.

    And the CIA has a camera and mic up your asses as I type this. Tee hee hee.

  5. Well Lance done lance you managed to get WMD correct pity the rest of what you wrote is a load of crap!

  6. Garath,

    If you feel an uncomfortable jolt to your anus, it’ll be that moooslim cock up your enemy-appeasing ass. LOL

  7. Garath,

    And we did kick your asses twice…wanna make it a third, twinky boy? We’ll be crossing the pond to bail you sissies out soon enough. You’ve never been able to fight for yourselves…like the French frogs. Brits have historically picked on primitive countries to loot them. When going against a real army, they couldn’t fight their way out of a paper bag. LOL

  8. Garath,

    Oh, and nice run-on sentence, you undereducated dolt.

  9. Ian, the stats are compiled from information supplied by individual countries, so pretty accurate. Unless the Welsh are hiding their super rich status by masquerading as a second world nation.

    Lance, as usual your ignorance of history is showing through. To be fair though, if it wasn’t on TV last night, you probably have no idea that it even took place.

    You’ve never been able to fight for yourselves…like the French frogs.

    Ironic that you keep saying that, after all it was the French that won you your independence, or is this the famous historical amnesia at play? The French landed a huge army in the colonies and fought the British for you. It was the French fleet, not the US fleet, that smashed the British fleet at Yorktown and prevented any British evacuation. If that wasn’t enough the French were also the ones that took the last redoubt. At the Battle of Yorktown there were more frogs than Yanks!

    To commemorate this victory they built you the statue of liberty, or did you think that was American?

    I am no fan of the French, but at least we Brits don’t have any reason to be grateful to them, unlike you Americans.

  10. Brits have historically picked on primitive countries to loot them.

    You mean like Cuba? Vietnam? Hawaii? The American Indians? The Philippines? Puerto Rico? Iraq?

    People in glass houses….

  11. Brits have historically picked on primitive countries to loot them.

    Most of Britain’s wars have been against major powers or other Empires. Can you say the same about the US?

    Britain fought Napolean, Hitler, the Mughal Empire (the richest nation on earth at the time), Spain (the most powerful nation on earth at the time), the French countless times…

    Of course there were people like the Zulus too, but then all those that we fought, and massacred admittedly with our better weapons, today have their own nation state or representation. Can those that were massacred by the US say the same? Like the Indians?

  12. When going against a real army, they couldn’t fight their way out of a paper bag.

    A real army? You mean like the US? Despite fighting Napoleon in the largest war the world had ever seen, and by rights the world first World War, Britain still managed to stop the US invasion of Canada.

    In 1940 it was Hitler suing for peace with the British, not the other way around. Hitler offered Britain guarantee’s that it could keep its Empire and Germany would not interfere, as long as Britain did not interfere with Europe. Britain declined and fought on.

    Despite what many Americans seem to think, Britain was never under any real threat of invasion. The Royal Navy controlled the seas, and the RAF the skies, Hitler knew he could never invade Britain. Which is why the fighting switched to Africa. Britain fought the Germans and the Japanese too, or do you forget that?

    In Europe it is the US who are seen as Johnny Come Lately Glory Boys. The US entered WWI a few months before it ended. WWII when the war had shifted in the Allies favour.

  13. Lance, you frigging dickhead, what the hell you talking about!! i think you should read in very
    S L O W T IM E what you have been writing, because you are not making any bloody sence! try writing something when you are not drunk or smoking anything.

  14. Hi Charlie. Nice comment about the Welsh being represented on the Union Flag. Economically I mean. Hey if that isn’t a good enough reason I don’t know what is. Hell you’re so educated that you don’t know that the Welsh dug your coal, iron (not to mention smelting it and making things out of it) and slate during the industrial revolution. Welsh hard work kept the empire that many people are proud of going. Hell it gave us Brits the means to have one. Lets forget about economy though. Welsh men and women have laid down their lives in defense of this realm for Christ’s sake. We always have. So if that is not enough for us to be included on a British flag I don’t know what is. Check out the things the Welsh have given this country. We wouldn’t have the National Health Service were it not for a Welshman who based the whole system on a program that was already running in Bevan’s hometown of Tredegar. That is just the tip of the ice berg.

  15. you say the queen is a monarch of england, scotland and ireland but what about next in throne the prince of Wales ?

  16. Mathew,

    Wales is a Principality and so technically, the Prince of Wales is the Welsh Monarch.

    Poor Wales.

  17. percy,

    I don’t think that anyone is disputing whether the Welsh have contributed, the question is whether they continue to contribute and are they, or have they, contributed their fair share to Britain?

    Your point about the Industrial revolution is a good one, but not quite accurate. Far more English dug out the coal and smelted the iron than Welsh, and it was only right that Wales did their fair share of the hard work for the Empire, after all it was the British Empire, we are all where we are today because of the hard work carried out back then.

    The whole debate is pointless though, you never see a Union Jack in Wales, and this would not change even if it did represent Wales better.

  18. hi charlie. what do you mean you never see a union jack in wales? You see plenty. As I’m sure you know St David’s Day is one of the official days that the Union Flag if flown in Wales and there are plenty flown at all times. The problem with Wales not contributing more is that we just do not have the natural resources left. I agree that more coal was dug in England but when you consider the population of Wales more was probably dug per capita than England. Merthyr Tydfil, for all its present woes, was the “Iron Capital of the world” and contributing some of the best, if not the best, iron in the world 9which was exported from Cardiff docks which was one of the very biggest and busiest ports in the world at the time. The point I’m making is that Wales has done its fair share to contribute to Britain so why doesn’t it deserve credit? What, then, of parts of England that are economically un-viable? Should they be excluded from Britain too. Don’t forget, either, that most of the businesses in Wales are English owned and it is predominantly Welsh people who spend their hard earned (or in some cases not) cash there which then goes into English banks. There are others ways that Wales contributes to the economy even if it isn’t digging coal, digging and smelting iron, slate, granite, copper or even bearing arms for the realm (even though plenty still do and gladly). Both my grandfathers fought in the war (not that it proves anything because they had to). One was a merchant sailor and was one of the sailors in charge of a small craft during the defeat at Dunkirk (he saw some things). Didn’t they fight for the rights of the Welsh as well as the rest of Britain. Didn’t they fight for my rights as well?

  19. I dn’t know if you area a royalist or not (I quite like Prince Charles by the way and he doesn’t get the credit he deserves either, poor Charles) Another thing I feel I need to contribute is that the very way the monarchy operates today, from it’s operation down to the uniform the ‘beefeater’ (I apologies, I know not their correct name) blokies wear comes from a Welsh dynasty, the Tudor’s (from Tydwr). They were from Pembrokshire (when it was still Welsh). They were Welsh through and through (not that Henry VIII gave a monkeys for Wales mind) and gave that very monarchist way to Britain . An interesting point for you too. At one time ONLY the Welsh were known as British and was only really used as a derogatory name (due to the Welsh descent from the ancient Britons)

  20. What, then, of parts of England that are economically un-viable? Should they be excluded from Britain too.

    Good point. But I am not saying that Wales does not deserve credit, but I am wondering why now it has decided to demand a place on the two hundred year old Union Flag. It is too late as this flag is used by many different nations throughout the world. It would be a pointless and stupid exercise as within a decade or so Wales would not longer be part of the UK, if the nationalists have their way.

    Sure Wales has contributed to Britain, but let’s not get confused, Britain isn’t England, Britain is the Union. My point is would England be better off without Wales than with, and the contribution Vs the cost, means without.

    bearing arms for the realm (even though plenty still do and gladly). Both my grandfathers fought in the war (not that it proves anything because they had to). One was a merchant sailor and was one of the sailors in charge of a small craft during the defeat at Dunkirk (he saw some things). Didn’t they fight for the rights of the Welsh as well as the rest of Britain. Didn’t they fight for my rights as well?

    You should be rightly proud of your grandparents contributions, but let’s be honest that was a different Britain where everyone was equal. Today were have a pseudo independent Wales and Scotland and Northern Ireland and then the rest of Britain (i.e. England). The Welsh and Scottish Government frequently criticise Britain and Britishness, such as criticising that Olympic cyclist for having the British Flag, rather than a Scottish one. Far from quelling nationalism, devolution has intensified nationalist sentiment as Scottish and Welsh MPs are able to sell a Utopia, all at the expense of England. Scots for example receive almost 25% more per head of public money than the English and the Scottish and Welsh governments spend more each year than they are capable of raising in taxes.

    But I admit that the army is one of the things (one of the only things) that concerns me about independence. Welsh, Irish and Scottish soldiers have contributed much to Britain, and I hope we have some kind of British Army even after we are all independent, one that also includes Ireland, for protecting the British Isles.

    One of the few places where you still see a Britishness is in the army.

  21. Thanks again for the comment percy, I did know that the Tudors were Welsh, and also that the Stuarts were Scottish (so never really understood why some nationalists believe the Royals to be purely English).

    I could be wrong but I think that the last true English Monarch was Richard III, six hundred years ago.

    That said I am a Royalist.

    I didn’t know that about Britons, but I have always been confused as to why the Irish, Scottish and the Welsh find the word British so offensive, almost as if it meant English. After all the English are Anglo-Saxons, a Germanic people.

  22. Indeed the English, in general, are descended from the Angles, Friesians, Jutes, Saxons and a myriad of Germanic peoples. THE Welsh don’t find being called British offensive but SOME Welsh. You appear to generalize an entire nation. Most people in Wales really don’t care one way or the other. I’m British through and through. My mother is Welsh with hints of ‘Germanic’ blood from her fathers side who originated from Anglesey which, as the name suggests, was settled by Germanics. My father on the other hand is English, London born in fact with Welsh blood from his mothers side. One thing my parents have instilled in me is the ability to look at things objectively (which is why I am a psychologist and look at research with a objective and unbiased view as possible). An entire people cannot be generalized. After the war psychology decided to look at the old question ‘Is there something different about the German race?’ (because of their supposed propensity for war which is wildly inaccurate) and they found that nothing was different. You made an interesting point that nationalists paint a utopia. You are, of course, right for the simple reason that people listen and believe in what they want to. Hitler sold his people a utopia which they wanted and to some degree he provided. Politicians of all countries paint a wonderful picture. History is written by the victors who cut and paste information that suits them. Governments and those in authority inform us and form in our minds a version of a reality that they want us to believe. Man, unfortunately, does not know where they come from (we guess) or where we are going so we need comfort. So it is up to our ‘betters’ to try to do that.

  23. But I waffle. I apologise. I do, however, see your point. But are you sure the MP in question meant that the red dragon should be combined with the Union Flag or that the Union Flag should be put on the Welsh flag in the same fashion as the flags of the common-wealth because the former, to be fair, simply woudln’t work.

  24. ooh, just another little point. the nationalists, predominantly, want rule diverted away from London BUT stay under the title of commonwealth status with the queen (or old charlie) as the head of state.

  25. You appear to generalize an entire nation.

    I wasn’t trying to generalise an entire nation, but you have to make assumptions based on what the elected officials are saying to get an idea of public feeling.

    I could be wrong, but it seems odd that the Welsh Assembly ministers make a fuss out of things such as Britishness, the Welsh flag, the Welsh language etc. In my experience politicians rarely do anything unless it is going to gain them votes or money.

    I’m not sure about the commonwealth flag idea, after all why would the Welsh fly a Welsh flag with the Union Jack on it? Will they only fly it when they should be flying the actual Union Jack?

    I certainly wouldn’t want to see a mini Union Jack on the English flag, at least until after independence.

    Interesting point about the Queen, especially as the SNP want to retain her as Head of State too. Bizarre really as that would make us a United Kingdom still. I suppose though us all having the same Head of State would give us all a figure head for getting together behind.

  26. I actually agree with you about politicians. Plaid Cymru (Party of Wales) used to be stalwart nationalist but now they have formed a coalition with the Labour Party simply because it suits them. As for the flag I know not. As far as being a United Kingdom I don’t think many people in Wales have a problem with it. Yet many agree that rule should be home rule but whether they think it should be down to any of the current parties, I think, is debatable. One thing is clear, however, and that is that it is time for change at least then if we mess up we can only blame ourselves. It will be a learning process though and take a long time. The “Welsh” haven’t ruled themselves for centuries and there is no st agenda as to what a new Wales should be. Would be nice to find out though.

  27. Jeez! what a prick this armchair intellectual “charlie” is: I know,goes into a pub in North Wales,all talking in english,sees him then talk in welsh! (the assumtion is of course that he is so important,as a stranger that all must talk about him)
    Talk about the arrogant Germans! obviously he knows little of history! Welsh is the oldest “living”language in europe! …I hear you say:what use on an international basis? who cares? you’r the sort of arrogant english bastard I would dearly love to meet! how about it! without your Norman slave masters! Ha! England collapsed in one day(I remind you)1066…sadly a common border with Wales with a tiny population,it took Edward the first with his saxon lackeys untill 1282 to conquorWales

    • Thanks alan, or should that be Alun?

      Arrogance is a trait that is hard earned, so don’t feel too bad for not being able to exhibit it.

      I’d love to meet with you Taffy, but I don’t travel to third world countries, and lets be honest, you wouldn’t last five minutes in England, we have motorised vehicles, trains and everything, I don’t think you can ride donkeys on the roads anymore.

      As for Welsh, only 10% of Welsh people speak it, what use is it on a domestic basis, let alone on an international one? At least you can all speak English.

      As for 1066, your history seems to be lacking too, Harold pulled off two historic attempts at defending the nation within three weeks (name a Welsh King that has done that in battle?). Harold’s army marched 185 miles in four days, and consigned the Vikings to history. Sadly his second attempt ended in defeat.

      Wales was conquered by the Normans in 1093, and can’t even claim to have been worn out by wiping out the Vikings and have been English lackeys on and off ever since.

  28. by the way I your a twat, we cant help you run a a country soo shitly wat do u expect ?. anyway how does it effect you ?

    the british flag does effect us and we should be a aprt of it. if your sad enough to write a page about it, it sonds lik you need to get a life yo creep!

  29. the welsh are the true britons, the englishcame from the germans, so fucking unlucky you stupid english prick !

    • Unlucky? True Britons bend like reeds in the wind. First you lost the British Isles to the Romans, then the north to the Scots and then the Anglo Saxons took the rest.

      Thank God the English were here to protect you after that, otherwise there’d be no true Britons left!

      Like the Picts and the Neanderthals, the Welsh are an evolutionary short straw.

  30. Hi Charlie,

    I appreciate your opinion on the subject of a part of the Welsh flag being added to the Union Jack.

    Can you say why you find it insulting?

    When Gordon Brown goes around talking about Britishness and flies a Union Jack that has no hint of Welsh on it, the Welsh feel marginalised in terms of identity. When you say the flag has enough red on it to incorporate the Welsh your talking about the red of Saint George’s (English) and Saint Patrick (Irish) cross’. These guys have nothing to do with Wales and therefore they are meaningless to us. Also, the MP’s did not ask the government to “Stamp” the welsh dragon onto the flag. They gave proposals. Which, yes one included the welsh dragon, but another included St Davids cross which meant there were many variations to go on. But the government felt it was too hard work and I can understand that argument however for every argument there is a counter argument.

    When you say Wales hasn’t contributed to the UK. There are many ways in which they have but obviously to the rest of the UK the amount of work we do may not amount to same as the rest of the countries and so is not appreciated.

    Wales is a small country. But no matter how small, we do our bit. All the coal and various other resources was dug and therefore there is little natural resources left. However we do still bring in tourism and the country has been noted for the natural beauty and history. There is little suitable soil to grow crops and so livestock farming is the best there is to offer. Wales still has ports, steel works and renewable energy stations.

    By the way I am half English but I still don’t understand your pain.

    And the amount of people in wales speaking fluent welsh is just over 20% not 10% and it is still rising, It is not a “dead ” language, as long as if people still speak it it is not dead. I know plenty of people who speak fluent welsh and people who send their kids to welsh schools. My grandfather is bilingual.

    Welsh is used in the armed forces for when communication between soldiers may be picked up by the enemy. Welsh is used because it is highly unlikely the enemy may understand Welsh. I know this because I have 4 uncles who served in the army, my grandfather in the RAF, and another uncle in navy. My father was and brother is a Para, so don’t say we don’t do our bit. I have also considered joining the army/RAF.

    What I find insulting is that you compare Welsh to muslims. I am by no means rascist. I know many people who are religious and different nationalities. Wales has been here since the UK started and has every right to have an identity. The problem that many don’t understand is that this country feels marginalised. This is not understood because no one is in this situation but Wales. For example. The Westminster Government flooded a village to create a reservior for Liverpool. That village was called Capel Celyn. People had to move homes from a tightly nit community because the government couldn’t be bothered to find another place. The worst thing about it was the fact that 35 of 36 Welsh MP’s appealed against it. That is called marginalisation, the fact that Wales is powerless even in their own affairs.

    To be honest, I don’t care if something to do with Wales is on the Union Jack. Yes, I am part English but I was born and bred in Wales and carry Celtic blood, so when someone asks for my nationality I say Welsh. I just felt compelled to comment on this little article because you spoke of the Welsh in a negative way. As if no one contribute to the UK. When the majority of my family has fought for QUEEN and country, offering their lives up for it. Also you gave me the impression that we were also, how to say this, less intelligent? The last comment. You compared the Welsh to the Neanderthals. Just because a prick has commented on your article doesn’t account for the rest of the Welsh population. Don’t tar us all with the same brush. That ticks me off when I work so hard in college and aim for top grades (currently achieving them), a sponsorship/scholarship from a company to sponsor me in Uni on a Science course.

    By the way. We have all the motorised vehicles and technologies you have across the boarder, we’re not as neanderthal as you think.

    • Thanks for the comment Siani. I have nothing really against the Welsh and most of my other comments concerning them were tongue in cheek.

      What annoyed me about the flag is that it is too late. Sure the Welsh should have been on the flag but they aren’t and now it is too late. That flag is on about 100 different flags around the world. Too late.

      We have a situation where every minority group in the UK complains about representation, that annoys me. The problem with modern Britain (and what this Britishness rubbish is all about) is that everyone feels marginalised.

      The Welsh are a minority, but at least they have their own flag. More people live in Yorkshire than Wales, yet Yorkshire are not represented on the flag either, nor have they got their own flag. At the end of the day, like Yorkshire, Wales is just a province in Britain.

      As for contribution, I have no doubt that the Welsh, like the Irish and the Scots have contributed militarily to this nation, and you should be rightly proud of your family’s service. But I do wish people would realise that Britain is not England, we are just as much a part of this Union as you, your family weren’t fighting for my Queen, or the English but OUR Queen and OUR nation.

      We English would like our own Parliament, or better yet independence, like you Welsh have, but we are never going to get it. So you can see why I have little sympathy for the Welsh.

  31. MAE charlie yn dwp

  32. with out us you wouldnt have coal lamb etc so go fuck your self and piss of if you think were not a part of the uk or gb

    mae rhaid i rai pobl cael mwy o sense da nwy diolch byth bod i yn cymraed cachai bant saeson

    • Yes quite right, because we English are too dumb to figure out that China sells coal cheaper, and that New Zealand has nicer lamb!

      Come one jde, part of the UK or GB? The Welsh are barely part of the human race.

      No idea what you said at the end Taffy, but it is mostly likely just as forgettable as Wales’ contribution to history.

  33. Roy the Huguenot

    Charlie, I read the post by my fellow American and it sounds like he has an ax to grind. However, I take exception to your comments on the French securing our Independence. Most Americans know the French fleet won the war at Yorktowne but we had a long hard fight and we stuck it out which wasn’t easy. Washington held the Army together pretty good considering lack of supplies etc. We had very tough frontiersmen in this country and you did not survive in the States if you weren’t. Don’t forget, we fought a WW2 on 2 fronts. IMHO, the French had other plans. They wanted a piece of us but failed later in 1799. BTW, I’m of French Huguenot decent. My family came to NJ in the 1660’s because they were protestant and the English welcomed them and for that I am greatful. The damn Catholics in France were butchering my ancestors. The French supplied Washington with muskets and ammo and uniforms too. But they did not fight the whole war for us. The bulk of Washingtons army were Scots-Irish and they are revered here in the US as tough fighters to this day. I always like to talk on the American Revolution. Thanks, Roy

    • Thanks for the comment Roy. Don’t worry about Lance, he’s just a crazy troll.

      However, I take exception to your comments on the French securing our Independence.

      I wasn’t saying that the French were 100% responsible, but it seems to be a tired old line that comes out from the US ‘We saved your asses twice’ seemingly completely forgetting the European role against the British that secured US independence.

      It was no small thing by the French, they had 12,000 men fighting in the colonies, about the same number of men as the entire Continental Army, and more than the Americans at Yorktown, and were fighting against the world’s most powerful nation and largest navy.

      If they hadn’t won the Battle of Chesapeake Bay and Yorktown, then it is fair to say that the war would not have ended when it did. Could the war still have been won without the French aid at all? Possibly.

      Could it have been won without European aid? No. It wasn’t just the French army or French fleet but the Dutch, Russian and Spanish, basically all the major powers of the world against Britain. People get caught up in the romance of this war, and to be fair it was a war of independence, but for everyone else it was a continuation of the long running world war, albeit with different alliances. Were it not for the naval blockade of the Atlantic by the other major powers, the battles elsewhere in the world and the fact that in reality, the colonies weren’t worth much at all (Jamaica alone produced five times the income each year of all the 13 colonies put together), it would have been a very short war.

      So the US does owe a lot to the Europeans, particularly the French who did far more than just supply ammo and weapons, and Spanish, Russians and Dutch. Sure, none of them were doing it for altruistic reasons, the French were still smarting after losing the battle for North America and wanting to do anything to diminish British power there, gain back Canada and more importantly the rich West Indies and India. Spain wanted Gibraltar (and still do!) and Minorca and any other colonies that they could get their hands on, and the Dutch trying to get back their glory days, but the result was the same. Besides the same could be said of the US in World War II, did they really enter to defend liberty and freedom and stop tyranny, or to ensure that the USA would have a leading place in the world and be the world’s foremost power? The irony of course being that on the War of Independence the US were pawns in a global game of Europeans powers, by the end of World War II, it was the US that emerged as the major power, and the European that became pawns and in massive debt to the US economically (Britain finished paying off those war loans in 2006!).

      Don’t forget, we fought a WW2 on 2 fronts.

      So did Britain, three if you count North Africa, four with the Middle East. Another thing that rarely seems be get mentioned is that the British fought the Japanese too, Britain lost over 100,000 men to the Japanese before the US even joined the war, and then another 100,000 men stopping them reaching India (more than double the total number of US casualties in the Pacific Theatre), all whilst fighting the Germans in Europe, the Middle East and North Africa.

  34. Helvetica Bold

    I take it you don’t care for the Welsh that much which is unfortunate, and I obviously disagree with your seemingly odious principles, but that aside, there are a two major flaws with your rant:

    1: Queen Elizabeth is constitutional head of state of the UK (England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland) which does not include Ireland. Ireland is a seperate republic.

    2: The flag is only called the ‘Union Jack’ when flown at sea. It is otherwise known as the ‘Union Flag!’

    • Hello Helvetica Bold, thank you for commenting.

      I really have nothing against the Welsh, I’d rather be part of Britain than Europe, or any other Union, but we English make up the vast majority of the Union, yet seem to get treated like second class citizens, so when the Welsh/Irish/Scottish et al start complaining about their fair share, all whilst living it up on English taxes, I don’t take kindly to it.

      I preferred it when Britain was actually Britain, not three de facto independent nations, and England.

      To answer your points:

      1: Wales as far as I am aware is a principality, that means that the Queen is not the Queen of Wales. Sure, she may be the Head of State of the UK, which includes Wales, but I don’t think that they are the same thing. As for Ireland, the Union Jack incorporates Ireland (St Patrick’s cross) and the flag hasn’t changed since, and so when I was talking about the flag I meant Ireland, but when I was talking about the Queen I meant Northern Ireland.

      2: The Union Jack has been the official term for over 100 years, and unofficially for centuries, I don’t know of anyone who still refers to it as the Union Flag, outside of the navy.

  35. I think this ‘article’ is a complete waste of time! Wales is part of Great Britain, therefore should be able to be on the Union Jack! I am 100% Welsh! And I personally think that it is a load of bull that you English are complaining on a website? Grow a pair! Wales has rights and I would like to fight for them! Also next time there is a War, see how long the English survive without us, because England may have a bigger population, but Wales is defenatly the ‘hard ones’ out of the four countries! I have to be fair, I am pretty proud of this, seeing as i’m twelve years of age, Wales was also supposed to be the ‘dull ones’ 😉 Never judge a book by it cover! i bet most English people haven’t been to Wales, ofcourse we have a right to be on the Union Jack!

  36. Hello Charlie, I am guite offended by you comments ‘taffy’ and something like ‘should be foregotten, like the Welsh’? Well i for one would rather be speaking Welsh! Heard of the Welsh Knot? That the English brought to us, that if we spoke Welsh we would be punished? England are the ones who made Wales so depending on England, so you can start making racist comments about our language, how we talk and accusations that Wales is a waste of space? Yet we are not allowed to speak up for OUR country? Ofcourse we are going to be biased! But raicism is not apart of the ‘which country is better?’ and ‘Wales and England hate eachother’ argument that is going to go on for years! Rydw i’n caru Cymru! ❤ Please excuse the spelling. 😀

    • Thanks for commenting Livvy.

      I am glad that you love your country and are proud to be Welsh, but are you equally proud to be British? As for racism, the irony is you are a minority in a nation of minorities and yet you’re still clamouring for more. There are more Muslims and Yorkshiremen in the UK than Welsh, yet the Welsh are a special case having their language protected (Yorkshire dialect is not), their own Parliament, virtual independence, and so on. Once one tiny minority gets the flag changed, were does it end, and who decides?

      The reason that the Welsh aren’t on the flag is because the flag represented the unifying of Kingdoms, and Wales was a principality, it is too late now to change that. As I have said before, any change would also mean the Australians, New Zealanders and myriad other nations having to update their flag too, just to appease a couple of million people in a province of Britain.

  37. what a bunch of english pricks our lads are dying in your shit wars and you say that we dont deserve to be on the union jack try telling tht to their families i am welsh and proud how dare you ridicule wales its england that bring our economy down by puppetering the welsh assembly i would gladly die for my country wales any day and if the english dont like us then why did you want our country ooo let me guess because you cant fight your own wars

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