Doctors continue to drain the NHS

BBC NEWS | Health | More patients ‘top up’ NHS care

More patients will have to pay ‘top-up’ fees for private care because of budget cuts in the NHS and long waiting times, a group of doctors say in a report.

I know that the NHS is under resourced and that there are serious money problems within the hospitals. I know that NHS staff are being laid off and that newly qualified nurses are unable to find work. I know all this and have some sympathy but things like this really, and I mean really piss me off.

Just who precisely decided that Doctors would be the best judge of what patients should and should not have to pay for? Since when did they become the Guardians of the NHS, since when did we hand over control of the State subsidised cash cow that is the NHS wholly over to these Doctors?

Doctors should have no say in such matters, as like most MPs, Doctors have private healthcare. They don’t live in the same world, that is the real world, as the people that pay for the NHS.

Your average Doctor earns £100,000 per year, that is FIVE TIMES the national average salary of £19,000 and TEN TIMES the minimum wage! To say that they are at the top end of the pay scale in Britain is a little bit of an understatement, some Doctors earn up to £250,000 per year!

Yet these Doctors, who have just rejected a pay increase for being too low, are the ones complaining that the taxpayer just isn’t putting enough money into the NHS and should, on top of his tax, pay an additional charge to help pay for said Doctors second or third home abroad. How kind of them.

As you can probably tell I have something of a grudge against Doctors as I view them as being over paid, which is far enough as the average British Doctor earns five times as much as the average German Doctor, but there is more to it than that.

Sooner or later these recommendation are going to become legislation, like University Top-Up Fees there will be NHS Top-Up Fees. Where no matter how much tax you’ve paid previously, you’ll be required to pay extra for operations or hospital admissions.

Doctors for Reform says the idea that health care is free across the UK is now a “political mirage”.

But this needn’t be the case. Greed and arrogance has turned the NHS into a cash hungry, corrupt, joke of a Health Service and if it should reach the point where patients have to pay anything it should be abolished immediately. In fact I see no reason why it shouldn’t be abolished right now. Let the Doctors see how much they earn working only in the private sector.

I am not some rich Doctor that can afford to go private, however I know that British Taxpayers pay about £90 Billion in taxes into the NHS each year. If it were abolished that would mean a saving of £1,500 per year for every man, woman and child in the UK. A staggering £125 a month that stays in the average workers pay packet. More than enough for everyone to go private.

In fact, working in averages of course, that would mean a family of four would get £500 a month to spend on Healthcare! I’ve looked but was hard pressed to find private healthcare cover for more than that price per month. That would be more than enough to cover a family of four and probably be the Premium Service that currently only Consultants can afford.

Of course the Government would never allow the NHS to be abolished. Like the Environmental causes it allows them to raise taxes with very little objections from the public. It provides an almost limitless amount of tax (the amount of tax taken for the NHS has trebled in the past ten years), no Government would ever be as foolish to get rid of such an easy money maker. And if they did, they certainly wouldn’t reduce tax.

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30 responses to “Doctors continue to drain the NHS

  1. An average of £100,000 ?? On what planet? An average consultant might earn somewhere near that, but a consultant is not an average doctor. An ST3 (what used to be called Specialist Registrar) will not earn more than £64,000, and that includes a lot of overtime, and after at least 8 years service. As someone on another forum rightly pointed out – there are plumbers, carpenters and electricians who have much higher incomes than the average doctor. The author of this is correct – doctors should not be burdened with hospital management – they should be allowed to concentrate on patient care, and should be paid considerably more than NHS managers to do so. The author of the above article is just wrong., Doctors are not overpaid, they are vastly underpaid.

    • Thanks for the comment Andrew.

      The salaried quoted for an average doctor is an average, calculated in the same way as the national average salary. Some Doctors earn £30,000, others £250,000 plus.

      Although that article was written two years ago I still stand by my assertion that doctors are overpaid. Should there really be such a disparity between Doctors and nurses? More to the point, should the average doctors salary be five times more than the people that they are treating?

      Years ago Tony Blair stated that in order to have a first class health service, in order to attract the best doctors and keep them, doctors need to be the best paid in the world. Now they are, but we have yet to see that first class health service. Worse doctors complain each year when they don’t get a 3% pay rise, despite the massive payrise years ago.

      As if any further proof were needed of how well paid doctors are, just look at the proliferation of foreign doctors within the health service, they are not here for the inclement weather but the great pay. We’re not talking doctors from third world countries either, we have doctors from Germany, South Africa, Sweden, you name it.

      I agree about the administrators, some earn more than doctors, which considering the 6/7 years of study doctors have to undertake, is staggering.

      Things like top up fees muddy the waters a little, leaving university with £25k debts is no fun, but this is the same as all degree students, typical debts are around £16k. Typical graduate student starting salaries are around the £17k mark, doctors are double this.

      Doctors are not underpaid. Like nurses their salaries have grown at a staggering rate under Labour, whereas the national average salary as increased by just a few thousand pounds. The very fact that some GPs can make a quarter of a million pounds on one year is beyond belief. In the US GPs make about £85,000 a year.

      Junior Doctors are underpaid however, especially for the hours they work.

  2. Your an idiot. The reason why there is such a disparity between nurses and doctors is the length of training and the amount of hours put in.
    I’m a newly qualified Doctor, my basic salary for 5 years study is 23k which is supplemented by evenings and weekends up to 30k .
    The average Doctor to reach consultant will have studied for 5 years + minimum 9 years of post graduate training plus numerous extremely difficult post grad exams…Yes we may earn more than the average citizen but the average citizen isn’t a straight A grade student with 5 years of university education and 9 years of further training; If you look at it like that, no other profession trains as long as us, to earn as little as us…look at barristers and solicitors etc…
    Also the 100k amount you state is ridiculous; the consultant salary is around 75k and can be supplemented and make it up to around 250k through private work; and if someone wants to use their free time to earn additonal cash who the hell are you to say otherwise?

    People forget how hard it is to become a Doctor and the amount of responsibility we hold; if you want to attract the best and the brightest into medicine, you need some kind of financial incentive to attract the best. And the salary isn’t even that great if you look at other career i.e. bankers, lawyers, accountants etc…

    Also just read you statement how the average salary is 17k for graduates and ours is double that. BULL SHIT. Our basic 39 hour salary is 23k marginally more than the average (5k and consider we study longer; surely thats fair?) and it is bumped it to 30k by compulsory overtime in the form of weekends (i.e. working Monday to friday, being on call friday to sunday (the last 3 days being 13 hour shifts i.e. 39 hours in 3 days; how many hours do you work? a week?; and then starting the monday to friday again without any break).

    It absolutely turns my stomach when idiots like you spout such poison about how over paid doctors are; if I wished to earn alot of money I would never have gone into medicine, but I’d like a decent salary for all the hours I put in…30k may sound like a lot for a new graduate; however when you work it out over the 48 hours I work (I always work over that; as its more like 55-60) it works out around £13 an hour…

    I’d like to see someone like you go to medical school and deal with its difficulties in terms of study and emotional drain, then to be a junior doctor working such long hours, then to sit post graduate exams and further study etc…then to be told you earn too much for a top NHS salary (around 80-90k as a consultant) which is rivalled by some of my friends who are accountants and solicitors 5 years into the job, with less hours and alot less responsibility.

    So in summary; you = idiot with no grasp on reality.

    • Thank you Mr Murphy, or should that be Doctor?

      You’d think that having spent so many years in a reputable seat of learning you’d have picked up the meaning of the word ‘average’. That doesn’t mean that all doctors earn the same, it means that the average, taking into account all the others salaries from £25k+ upwards to £250,000, is £100,000.

      You also missed the last sentence:

      Junior Doctors are underpaid however, especially for the hours they work.

      So I am unsure who you are calling an idiot, me for writing it, or you for not reading it before launching into your little tantrum?

      The reason why there is such a disparity between nurses and doctors is the length of training and the amount of hours put in.

      Nurses do three years training now, soon to be moved up to four in England for the compulsory degree (already the case in Wales and Scotland). So does that mean that they should be paid more?

      Nurses also work 13 hour shifts, and let’s be honest, they do most of the work.

      The £250,000 figure is from GPs, and paid for by the taxpayer.

      And the salary isn’t even that great if you look at other career i.e. bankers, lawyers, accountants etc…

      But they don’t work for the taxpayer, if you’re in it for the money why not work in the private sector? I’ll tell you, the NHS is where the money is. Both doctors and nurses are paid less in the private sector, than in the public sector.

      Vets and dentists do the same/similar training, but are paid far less because they aren’t paid by the taxpayer.

      As for your comments about salary, sure the lowest paid junior doctor is paid about £23k – basic, but this rises to about £40k after the first year. Also junior doctors specialising in certain fields can earn up to £70k.

      After five years the average salary of a junior doctor is about £50k, how many professions enable the doubling of their salary in just five years?

      As for being paid £13 an hour, nurses get paid about ten, the minimum wage is about £5.90, most people in Britain would consider themselves lucky to earn £13 an hour.

      Look on the bright side, next year you’ll be on £18 an hour, in five years it’ll be £20 an hour, although by then, I doubt you’ll be working 48 hours a week.

      Finally, if doctors are so under appreciated in Britain, if doctors should be paid more, then why are we the country that pays them the most? As I stated earlier, in the US a GP earns about £85,000 on average, in Germany a GP earns the same as a junior doctor here, about £32k. Who has it wrong? Everyone else, or just us?

  3. The average salary is NOT £100,000 though! Your looking at all damn earnings…including private work.

    “Nurses do three years training now, soon to be moved up to four in England for the compulsory degree (already the case in Wales and Scotland). So does that mean that they should be paid more?

    Nurses also work 13 hour shifts, and let’s be honest, they do most of the work.”

    No, not the case in Wales look up the Cardiff university website its 3 years. And when I was talking about training; its not just the university education, until you reach consultant you are in a training post which means further study, more exams, more courses, more lectures etc…so its another 9 years to reach consultant…when I speak of the disparity between nursing and doctor training thats what I mostly was talking about; also medical training is more academically rigorous than nursing training, I’m not saying nursing is easy, but its more vocational than medicine and does not require the amount of book study and hours that we have to put in

    Yes they work 13 hours shifts as well, but the difference is they work around 3-4 a week, then have the rest of the week off…no oncalls.
    The whole they do most of the work comment fucking infuriates me; they get regular 2o mins break every shift plus and hour for lunch…I think I’m lucky if I manage to get 15mins to eat a sandwich while I’m still working…they might be seen to do most of the work on a single ward as opposed to the doctors…but they are on one ward!…my patients are over several and I’m the one dealing with the sick patients and sorting out discharges and organsing investigations etc…Please don’t try and tell me they do most of the work; they work hard but so do I.

    “Both doctors and nurses are paid less in the private sector, than in the public sector.”

    What? An NHS consultant on around 100k max salary in the NHS (without any managing role, medical director etc)…this can be supplemented to 250k through private work as a consultant with a much smaller committement to private work…how is the NHS pay more lucrative?
    I’ve also seen locum private work as a junior and its around £10 more per hour than the equivalent NHS…so please…inform me where you get this enlightened information from. Because I think every NHS consultant in the country that carries out private work would like to know how they could earn more without it.

    “Vets and dentists do the same/similar training, but are paid far less because they aren’t paid by the taxpayer. ”

    HAHAHAHA are you kidding me? Dentists earn less? Are you actually being serious?

    Firstly; Salaried dentists

    Salaried dentists employed by the NHS primary care trusts (PCTs), who work mainly with community dental services earn between £37,344 and £79,875.

    From NHS website. And thats just with the dentistry degree and minimal further training.
    Also private dentistry work SMASHES the salary of hospital consultants and GPs; so that is such, such a stupid statement…

    As for vets; if they own their own practices they can earn a fair amount as well.

    “As for your comments about salary, sure the lowest paid junior doctor is paid about £23k – basic, but this rises to about £40k after the first year. Also junior doctors specialising in certain fields can earn up to £70k. ”

    THE BASIC does not rise to 40k in the next year it rises to 27k, based on overtime, oncalls, antisocial hours it can be supplemented to 40k; so stop trying to distort facts.
    Also your 70k statement is idiotic and a blatant lie; as everyone in every speciality from consultant to junior doctor gets paid the same amount BASIC. Which for the most senior junior doctor would be around 35k (Core training level 2) the absolute MAX they could earn with a full banding which is alot of weekends, nights, oncalls and antisocial hours would be £52,500…so actually do some reading buddy.

    “After five years the average salary of a junior doctor is about £50k, how many professions enable the doubling of their salary in just five years?”

    AGAIN distortion, the BASIC salary is not at 50k mate….it will be about 35-37k after five years, which isn’t doubling. It can reach 50k through oncalls, weekends and nights…
    As for what professions offer that…ermmm most to my knowledge…accountants, lawyers…but the difference is…thats just 9-5.

    “As for being paid £13 an hour, nurses get paid about ten, the minimum wage is about £5.90, most people in Britain would consider themselves lucky to earn £13 an hour.

    Look on the bright side, next year you’ll be on £18 an hour, in five years it’ll be £20 an hour, although by then, I doubt you’ll be working 48 hours a week. ”

    As I already said; most people in Britian haven’t studied as long or as hard as me to be on £13 an hour (I earned £10 in a call centre). So keep your we should all earn the same as one another shit for a communist forum.

    “although by then, I doubt you’ll be working 48 hours a week.”

    Where did that notion come from genius? You already seem to have so much insight into the NHS (haha yeah…), are you aware of the struggle and the difficulty the NHS trusts have already had in complying with the 48 hours EWTD? Or the difficulty they had with the 55 hours? Or the number of trusts that can’t comply? Or the amount of hours the junior doctors ACTUALLY work? Or the amount of trusts that have advised the junior doctors to lie regarding the number of hours they work so they can be seen to comply?
    Probably no to all of the above; so less than 48 hours seems a little unlikely doesn’t it?

    “Finally, if doctors are so under appreciated in Britain, if doctors should be paid more, then why are we the country that pays them the most? As I stated earlier, in the US a GP earns about £85,000 on average, in Germany a GP earns the same as a junior doctor here, about £32k. Who has it wrong? Everyone else, or just us?”

    We earn the most?!?!
    Really?
    NO, we really don’t, maybe the family physician comparison…in the US a newly qualified FP will earn about 160k US dollars which is around 90-100k pounds, and this rises after around 3 years to around 120k pound…but even then it isn’t an even comparison as the cost of living in the US is less.
    As for other professions in medicine being paid the most in the world; serriously I can’t even begin to argue with you just look at: http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary_surveys/physician-salaries.htm
    take for example the oncologist…in this country the max earning is around 150k (with 50k supplement through private work!) in the US max is like 635,000…the average 3 years post qualification as being board certified over there is roughly 150k british…so please dude get your facts in order before replying as you are obviously really rather ignorant in regard to the NHS and doctors salary…where did you get your facts; the daily mail?

    As for GP salaries in the UK I on some extent agree they are excessive…however, it was the government that created the target based system that resulted in the GPs salaries increasing so much; and the reason behind that was the disparity in what each practice provided…the targets and financial incentive for the practice means they provide MORE for the public so are practicing better preventative medicine (the most cost effective I medicine I might add), the GPs overperformed and thus the inflated salaries…salaried GPs i.e. once that do not own a practice and so are not involved in that aspect are on around 75k-80 in london btw…not the 150k – 250k you spout.
    The individual practices earned alot more…and this supplemented GP OWNERS salaries…with practices now having to have to open later hours etc….the government want more for their money….so the GPs will either have to work longer hours to earn that salary (around 12ok practice owners) OR employ another salaried GP to help cover the hours…so their overall salary will decrease somewhat again…

    Also apologies for calling you an idiot…I was just rather infuriated to stumble across your post after doing a monday to thur normal hours, then fri to sat 13 hour shifts then back to monday – sunday.
    I’ve quickly come to realise though that in medicine you can give everything to it…time, life, etc…and you’ll never truly be appreciated etc….there will always be people like you ready to hurl the proverbial stones.

    • OK. There is a lot to cover so I will try and be as concise as I can.

      The average salary is NOT £100,000 though! Your looking at all damn earnings…including private work.

      The Der Spiegal article that you quoted has a hospital doctors salary in the UK at £75,000. As you yourself said, GPs (who aren’t included in that figure) earn at least £75-£80k, and I think we both agreed that they can earn up to £250,000 per annum. I think that puts the average doctor’s earnings at closer to £100,000 that the £50,000 or so you mentioned.

      No, not the case in Wales look up the Cardiff university website its 3 years. And when I was talking about training; its not just the university education, until you reach consultant you are in a training post which means further study, more exams, more courses, more lectures etc

      Nurses are also constantly retraining, having to take courses in the latest technicques and modern fads, and don’t they now have to prove they have improved, studied and progressed in order to receive a payrise each year? Do you?

      As for being tougher, come on. Are you saying that learning facts and information and then recounting and applying them in given situation is different for your particular field than it is for any other? There may be more to learn, but learning is learning. The reason that only a select few go into medicine isn’t because it is tough, but because it is so expensive. Indeed, recent surveys have shown that the rich elite account for a higher percentage of doctors, lawyers, accountants etc, than they did 40-50 years ago.

      The whole they do most of the work comment fucking infuriates me; they get regular 2o mins break every shift plus and hour for lunch…I think I’m lucky if I manage to get 15mins to eat a sandwich while I’m still working

      That is unless they are short staffed, have an influx of patients, or are waiting for a doctor, which pretty much seems to be the norm in most hospitals these days. I am sure very few nurses actually get their 20min break, let alone a full hour for lunch. Frontline staff are usually the first ones to suffer when it comes to being short staffed and under resourced. As I said many times, junior doctors are over worked and under paid. The Government is doing something about this however, by trying to use nurses to plug the junior doctor gap, i.e. making nurses work harder, train harder and for the same pay.

      …Please don’t try and tell me they do most of the work; they work hard but so do I.

      I think that you and I have a different understanding of the word – work. When I was in hospital it was the nurses washing, shaving, cleaning the excrement from, giving drugs to, and generally looking after the wellbeing of the patients. The doctors time with the patient would be just a few minutes, most of which was spent asking the nurse questions. I am not sure what doctors do when they are not on the ward, perhaps there is a ward somewhere where all the doctors go and have to provide some serious medical care. But every ward I have ever seen was the same, doctors were seldom seen, and when they were it was because a nurse had rung them, telling them what they needed to do for a patient. And this is the important part, patient care, that is why there are doctors nurses and hospitals. Patients.

      “Both doctors and nurses are paid less in the private sector, than in the public sector.”
      What? An NHS consultant on around 100k max salary in the NHS (without any managing role, medical director etc)…this can be supplemented to 250k through private work as a consultant with a much smaller committement to private work…how is the NHS pay more lucrative?

      Nurses earn around £16-18k in the private sector, £20k plus in the NHS. I am not sure about the average salary for private doctors, but those that are very well paid, are the ones that have reached the top of their proffession in the NHS and then do private work on the side.

      Let’s be honest here though, the private sector is often held up as an example of how doctors could be earning more, but there isn’t a market there. I’d like to ask why, if doctors can earn more in the private sector, more don’t work in the private sector? Or why don’t all of them? Because the private sector cannot sustain them. Quoting what one or two top consultant might make is all well and good, but the reality of the private sector is quite different.

      Firstly; Salaried dentists

      Salaried dentists employed by the NHS primary care trusts (PCTs), who work mainly with community dental services earn between £37,344 and £79,875.

      That is less than £100,000. I think that the top salary for an NHS dentist is about the average for a doctor.

      Also private dentistry work SMASHES the salary of hospital consultants and GPs; so that is such, such a stupid statement…

      Again with the private dentistry. That may be the case on Harley Street, but the average dentist in the UK doesn’t get near the £250,000 a year of GPs, not even private ones (outside of London).

      THE BASIC does not rise to 40k in the next year it rises to 27k, based on overtime, oncalls, antisocial hours it can be supplemented to 40k; so stop trying to distort facts. Also your 70k statement is idiotic and a blatant lie;

      OK. Visit this page at NHS Careers.

      I quote:

      Junior doctors earn a basic salary and will usually be paid a supplement. This supplement is based on the extra hours worked above a 40 hour standard working week and the intensity of the work. The most common banding supplement is 50% of basic salary. In the most junior hospital doctor post (foundation year 1) a doctor on a 50% supplement would earn £33,285. This increases in the second year (foundation year 2) to £41,285. A doctor in specialist training on a 50% supplement could earn from £44,117 to £69,369.

      Perhaps you should inform them that their statement is ‘idiotic and a blantant lie.’

      Also notice the part about Consultants:

      Consultants can earn between £74,504 to £176,242, dependent on length of service and payment of additional performance related awards.

      That is more that the £80k top rate you claimed, or are they including private work too?

      AGAIN distortion, the BASIC salary is not at 50k mate….it will be about 35-37k after five years, which isn’t doubling. It can reach 50k through oncalls, weekends and nights…

      After four or five years a Junior doctor is a specialty registrar, who have a average salary of about £48,000. As for nights, isn’t it in your contract to work a certain amount of nights and weekends a month? If so, then it really is part of your earnings. As for complaining about it, most people these days, from a supermarket worker, bus drivers through to prison officers and nurses work weekends and evenings and it is considered normal not extra. Indeed I believe that I am right in saying that nurses, who work far more weekends and evening than doctors (when I was in hospital, there was usually one or two doctors for many, many wards at night and on weekends – you were lucky to get so much as an x-ray after 5pm or on a weekend, but nursing levels were the same), don’t get paid extra for working nights, evenings and weekends anymore.

      As for what professions offer that…ermmm most to my knowledge…accountants, lawyers…but the difference is…thats just 9-5.

      Accountants don’t double their salary within five years. You just seem annoyed that lawyers earn more than you, it kind of reminds me of the MPs complaining that Polish plumbers earnt more than they did. If there is such a gulf in earnings, why didn’t you become a lawyer?

      Where did that notion come from genius? You already seem to have so much insight into the NHS (haha yeah…), are you aware of the struggle and the difficulty the NHS trusts have already had in complying with the 48 hours EWTD? Or the difficulty they had with the 55 hours? Or the number of trusts that can’t comply? Or the amount of hours the junior doctors ACTUALLY work? Or the amount of trusts that have advised the junior doctors to lie regarding the number of hours they work so they can be seen to comply?
      Probably no to all of the above; so less than 48 hours seems a little unlikely doesn’t it?

      Are you still a junior doctor after five years? Or is the work passed on to other newly qualified staff? Besides, I think that we may have a difference of opinion over the word – work. If doctors are really overworking, then they should have clocking on an off cards, just so we know just how hard they work.

      We earn the most?!?!

      It is best to compare like with like. A Neurologist in the US earns on average – £98,000, in France it is – £16,000, Germany – £43,000, Spain – £34,000, South Africa – £32,000, Australia – £47,000 and in the UK it is £63,500. As I said, Britain pays more than anyone else, on average. As for the US, the cost of living being less is not really an argument, they don’t have to pay taxes for an NHS, besides the average wage there is about £30,000, compared to around £20,000 here.

      If we don’t pay that well here, why is it that doctors from all over the world are eager to come here to work, but you won’t often find a UK doctor anywhere else?

      Also apologies for calling you an idiot…I was just rather infuriated to stumble across your post after doing a monday to thur normal hours, then fri to sat 13 hour shifts then back to monday – sunday.
      I’ve quickly come to realise though that in medicine you can give everything to it…time, life, etc…and you’ll never truly be appreciated etc….there will always be people like you ready to hurl the proverbial stones.

      As I said Junior doctors working 60-80 hours a week is ridiculous as well as dangerous, that is how drugs meant for veins end up in spines. Some doctors, I am sure, work very hard for their money. Others don’t work very hard but expect huge amounts of pay, earning ten times the national average, paid for by the taxpayer is just obscene. I always thought that people went into medicine to help people, not for the money? Or is that just what they tell the nurses?

  4. Also…http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,grossbild-575805-399537,00.html

    Just to show where we sit on the global scale…somewhere kind of in the middle in terms of salary in the developed world…which also shows how BAD the pay is for medics in Germany…just to show that your little example of German GPs earning 32k is not the norm in the EU.

  5. Also due to the low salary…there is an exodus of Doctors from Germany with many areas; particularly rural areas suffering with limited Doctors…the result of not appreciating the doctors and training and hours they put in via their salary…though I’m sure its actually just the doctors and their greed more than anything.

  6. I said 50k for junior staff not all Doctors.

    “Nurses are also constantly retraining, having to take courses in the latest technicques and modern fads, and don’t they now have to prove they have improved, studied and progressed in order to receive a payrise each year? Do you?”

    Haha…Am I? No…doctors just come out of medical school and that is IT Jesus you really know nothing…ever heard of the NHS portfolio? which is required to be completeted to progress showing competency in performing different procedures…And the various courses etc we are expected to obtain (usually in our spare time…not while being paid for). Nurses are not CONTINIOUSLY doing courses…of the nurses I’ve worked with one has possibly gone on a course in the last 4 months.

    You don’t think medicine is tough? lol…I’d like to see you or the majority of other students get through it…

    As for only if the nurses are not busy…fair enough….but WE never have the time for breaks etc…not once on my current job have I had time to take a break

    “The Government is doing something about this however, by trying to use nurses to plug the junior doctor gap”

    No; they do get more pay for additional roles they fulfill.

    “I’d like to ask why, if doctors can earn more in the private sector, more don’t work in the private sector? Or why don’t all of them? Because the private sector cannot sustain them.”
    Ermmm because they aren’t training roles? Most of us want to reach consultant; and that would not be possible via the private sector…
    And many, many consultants I know carry out some private work….as for why more don’t work in the private sector is not just a matter of it being able to sustain them…but also their speciality…surgery, cardiololgy lends itsself to private practice more than say A+E or geriatrics.

    “That is less than £100,000. I think that the top salary for an NHS dentist is about the average for a doctor.”

    BUT the community dentist has not had to continue with specialist training!!! Its out of dentistry school internship then work as a dentist and increased earning…if they do specialist dentistry they earn the same as consultants in the NHS.

    The blatant lie was in regards to junior medical staff earning 70k…as above states that is for SPECIALIST TRAINEES i.e. REG level, and I didn’t argue that was the case…and so the MOST senior registra should be earning about 69k…but the basic would be around 43 to 46k…(i.e. for a 40 hour week) which for a professional with 5 years undergrad and training for roughly 8 years isn’t that amazing.

    The VAST majority of consultants will be earning 75k – around 90k for continued service…the 179k values are for the VERY VERY few that obtain foundation awards etc…and you have to remember this is the NHS website so its likely to show the MAX without any indication of how unlikely you are to earn that…the VAST majority of consultants are on 75-90k.

    “After four or five years a Junior doctor is a specialty registrar, who have a average salary of about £48,000. As for nights, isn’t it in your contract to work a certain amount of nights and weekends a month? If so, then it really is part of your earnings. As for complaining about it, most people these days, from a supermarket worker, bus drivers through to prison officers and nurses work weekends and evenings and it is considered normal not extra. Indeed I believe that I am right in saying that nurses, who work far more weekends and evening than doctors (when I was in hospital, there was usually one or two doctors for many, many wards at night and on weekends – you were lucky to get so much as an x-ray after 5pm or on a weekend, but nursing levels were the same), don’t get paid extra for working nights, evenings and weekends anymore.”

    Its not an average of48k…its with the banding supplement that it is 48k.
    Yes a few Doctors and yes things do get done on weekends..including CTs and interventions…its just its only urgent things…and chest x rays do get done…so don’t be so ridiculous…
    As for complaning about it..I’m not really…my point is; the BASIC salary is for a 9-5 job…not for when you work WEEKENDS, EVENINGS and DO ONCALLS as for stating bus drivers, nurses, prisoner officers etc…all might work evenings and weekends…but its not common for them to work both weekends and evenings and their normal 9 till 5 tbh with you…

    As for accountants not doubling their salaries…maybe not but they do start on a pretty good starting salary…and all my uni mates that went into accountating post uni…which would be 4 years now are earning 40k+ for 9 to 5.

    Now to the meaning of the word work…I’m sorry I didn’t realise that for it to be considered WORK it had to involve cleaning excrement or being on the ward for the entire time…as I’ve explained whereas a nurse may have 5 patients on their ward where they give drugs and clean etc…..I have 30 on different wards…

    “When I was in hospital it was the nurses washing, shaving, cleaning the excrement from, giving drugs to, and generally looking after the wellbeing of the patients. The doctors time with the patient would be just a few minutes, most of which was spent asking the nurse questions. I am not sure what doctors do when they are not on the ward, perhaps there is a ward somewhere where all the doctors go and have to provide some serious medical care. But every ward I have ever seen was the same, doctors were seldom seen, and when they were it was because a nurse had rung them, telling them what they needed to do for a patient.”

    Yes thats all we do wait for the nurses to call us then we just come for 5 minutes and disappear…when the status quo changes we examine, prescribe and try and sort out the patient…
    What we do while not being bleeped and called to review ill patients etc…is being on ward rounds in the morning, reviewing the patients…organising investigations, taking collatoral histories from relatives, reviewing the bloods and investigation in the afternoon and coming up with a management plan…on top of this we also have to write up discharge summaries, are called to review the sick patients etc…also when we are on call we will also be running to cardiac arrests and seeing the new patients admitted…So I’m sorry if my definition of work doesn’t fit well with yours…I’m sure your job is much for difficult and draining….

    I think this statement is your most disrespectful for my profession
    “Besides, I think that we may have a difference of opinion over the word – work. If doctors are really overworking, then they should have clocking on an off cards, just so we know just how hard they work”
    You are actually a disgusting person; to think of all the hours of work I’ve carried out, the overtime (not paid) the time spent making sure my patients get well and aren’t in any danger; to read that is rather galling in all honesty.
    To enlighten me…what is your idea of the word work?
    Also after 4 years you become a registra, but still work similar hours…48 to reach you 69k max (as a most senior Reg) .

    “A Neurologist in the US earns on average – £98,000, in France it is – £16,000, Germany – £43,000, Spain – £34,000, South Africa – £32,000, Australia – £47,000 and in the UK it is £63,500”
    Where did you get this information from? As I don’t think thats correct at ALL for the US or france…a US neurologist would earn more than that look at that physician allied website I showed earlier…its more than that on average…
    Where do you get this information that on average we pay more?!?
    We really don’t..not even close when you throw in the US.
    Many Doctors from all over the world are eager to work here from SA, India etc….less so from the EU…and loads of british doctors are in the EU and australia…where the hell do you get your facts? you imagination?

    “earning ten times the national average, paid for by the taxpayer is just obscene. I always thought that people went into medicine to help people, not for the money? Or is that just what they tell the nurses?”
    Again, IT is a very very tiny amount of Doctors….your probably talking about the few cases of GPs that earn 250k…the GPs run clinics like businesses..also thats actually what they are…and the GPs earning 250k usually earn more clinics and are employing salaried GPs and so keeping the profits but also have the added pressure of running possibly 2-3 businesses as well as having a clinical commitment…Your using tiny, TINY percentage of GPs and Doctors to make your points…

    “I always thought that people went into medicine to help people, not for the money? Or is that just what they tell the nurses?”

    Believe me…5 years of education; to be unappreciated, work 48 hours (more like 55-60), for a 30k salary whereas others with a similar education earn 40k for 9 to 5 jobs…believe me buddy, I wouldn’t do my job for the cash…I could make alot more in many many other avenues for alot less.

    • Haha…Am I? No…doctors just come out of medical school and that is IT. Jesus you really know nothing…

      Of course, sorry I forgot, THEN you join the golf club right?

      You don’t think medicine is tough? lol…I’d like to see you or the majority of other students get through it…

      I think if it weren’t so damn expensive, the majority of students probably would.

      but WE never have the time for breaks etc…not once on my current job have I had time to take a break

      Right, you’re never on the ward, never respond to calls, yet are too busy to take a break? So what do you do with your time? Perhaps at some point in your medical training they should add a time managment module. In the real world, in business, you’d never get away with such a lackadaisical attitude.

      Maybe it is different with you being a junior doctor, but with patient time at a bare minimum, secretaries to type up notes, and finishing work at about 5, I find it hard to understand precisely what it is doctors actually do?

      No; they do get more pay for additional roles they fulfill.

      You missed my point. The Government plans to turn nurses into quasi doctors, and are part way there. The nurses of today have little in common with the nurses of the Carry On era, they now need diplomas and degrees and most of their days are taken up doing jobs that were, years ago, the jobs of doctors.

      ts out of dentistry school internship then work as a dentist and increased earning…

      I wasn’t saying that dentists were underpaid, like doctors they are overpaid and have also benefitted from short sighted Goverment policies and new contracts. The present Government seems to believe that to improve a service it merely needs to throw money at it, rather than manage it properly. Instead of a better service we have got a declining service and at a premium price.

      As the NHS has proven, paying great money doesn’t always attract the best candidates, just the greedy. I think that it was the head of the RCN that said that paying the nurses so well has meant that it attracted the wrong sort of people, those too posh to wash.

      The blatant lie was in regards to junior medical staff earning 70k…as above states that is for SPECIALIST TRAINEES i.e. REG level

      That’s not what you said, and it is not what it said.

      the VAST majority of consultants are on 75-90k.

      Which would still put the average around the £100,000 mark that you took issue with.

      As for complaning about it..I’m not really…my point is; the BASIC salary is for a 9-5 job…not for when you work WEEKENDS, EVENINGS and DO ONCALLS

      If they are not part of your contracted hours, why work them? If you are obligated to work them, and you get paid extra for doing so, then they are part of your basic salary. Do many junior doctors not work evenings, weekends and nights?

      as for stating bus drivers, nurses, prisoner officers etc…all might work evenings and weekends…but its not common for them to work both weekends and evenings and their normal 9 till 5 tbh with you…

      You really don’t have a clue do you? They are all shift workers, i.e. it is part of their contract and job to work those hours. For those sorts of people their working shifts can fall at any point over the 24 hour period each day. For example a nurse may work a night on Monday, an evening on the Wednesday and a morning shift on the Thursday. For people like that, there is no such thing as Mon-Fri 9-5.

      as I’ve explained whereas a nurse may have 5 patients on their ward where they give drugs and clean etc…..I have 30 on different wards…

      Yet you only see them during rounds, that start about 9ish and end not long after? I’ve been on, and visited relatives on, wards and haven’t seen a doctor for more than 24 hours. Lots of nurses, but no doctors.

      Yes thats all we do wait for the nurses to call us then we just come for 5 minutes and disappear…

      Glad that we agree on something. When in hospital the gentleman next to me took a turn for the worse and I remember the nurses calling several times and over several hours asking the doctor to take a look at him as she was worried. When he did eventually turn up, he had a go at the poor nurses for disturbing him (probably an important game on the course) before reviewing the patient and then getting even more agitated and blaming the nurses for the gentleman’s deterioration. That about summed up my experiences with doctors during my stay, most had to be forced to visit a patient outside of rounds.

      I’m sure your job is much for difficult and draining….

      From the sounds of your day, it is.

      You are actually a disgusting person; to think of all the hours of work I’ve carried out, the overtime (not paid) the time spent making sure my patients get well and aren’t in any danger; to read that is rather galling in all honesty.

      Maybe I am, but come on, we all, from the bin man to the CEO do unpaid overtime and go above and beyond to ensure customer satisfaction, that is if we wish to be good at our jobs. But you misunderstood me, the point of clocking in and out was to ensure that everyone was PAID for the hours they work, i.e. no more unpaid overtime, no more junior doctors or nurses working more than they should and no more taking advantage of the ambitious. Not to make sure that doctors were working the hours, unless the doctors have something to hide?

      Not from my imagination, or my bottom. From here:- http://www.payscale.com/

      Based on what they actually get paid, rather than what they are said to be paid.

      Believe me…5 years of education; to be unappreciated, work 48 hours (more like 55-60), for a 30k salary whereas others with a similar education earn 40k for 9 to 5 jobs…

      That is very little work, for a decent salary. Most graduates (who study for four years, just one year less) end up on starting salaries between £17-£20k, few jobs that I know of start at £40k and even fewer such jobs are 9-5, unless you are counting lawyers again? Many would consider your job a very good one. Most people are, or at least feel, unappreciated in their work, if you want constant reassuration, back patting and encouragement, perhaps you should have been a life coach.

      I always thought that helping people was its own reward.

      I could make alot more in many many other avenues for alot less.

      Really, like what? Everyone thinks that, I gave even heard nurses say that too, but the reality is usually different.

  7. Also, in regard to your do we have to prove that we are deserving of a higher salary each year you should look at the member of the royal college exams that we must sit in order to progress in specialist training…they are extremely tough…and so yes, to progress funny enough…we do have to sit exams and create portfolios and show competence and improvement…

  8. “I think if it weren’t so damn expensive, the majority of students probably would.”

    Strange as based on your interpretation we earn so much…surely that would be good incentive?

    “Right, you’re never on the ward, never respond to calls, yet are too busy to take a break? So what do you do with your time?”

    Never respond to calls? Are never on the ward? What are you talking about…or your few visits to a hospital; I forgot that makes you an expert…

    ” In the real world, in business, you’d never get away with such a lackadaisical attitude”

    I’d never want to go into the world of pen pushers tbh with you…I prefer to save lives…what is it you do again?

    “Which would still put the average around the £100,000 mark that you took issue with.”

    How does it put the average at 100,000? the vast majority of consultants earn 75-90k per year…the juniors earn less…average GP 80-90…practice holder about 100k….surely 100k is the higher end of the earners not the average?

    “If they are not part of your contracted hours, why work them? If you are obligated to work them, and you get paid extra for doing so, then they are part of your basic salary. Do many junior doctors not work evenings, weekends and nights?”

    Your missing the point, the basic salary in NHS is 37.5 hours anything above maybe compulsory; oncalls etc but isn’t considered to be part of basic its the increase for doing antisocial hours etc…as nurses and other nhs workers gets.

    “For example a nurse may work a night on Monday, an evening on the Wednesday and a morning shift on the Thursday. For people like that, there is no such thing as Mon-Fri 9-5”

    My point was idiot that they won’t have to work 9-5 then do say 5-12 then be back in the next day till the end of the week, then have another 13 hour shift (times 3 for over the weekend) then be back in on monday….my point was that doctors very often have to work much longer hours and have to work their antisocial hours + the normal 9 to 5.

    “Yet you only see them during rounds, that start about 9ish and end not long after? I’ve been on, and visited relatives on, wards and haven’t seen a doctor for more than 24 hours. Lots of nurses, but no doctors”

    My ward round used to last till noon with my consultant on geriatrics, after that I would occasionally have lunch, sort out investigations, chase investigations and decide upon further management etc….
    Now on surgery ward rounds are very quick; however there is still plenty to do i.e. deal with sick patients, write up discharge summaries (we do that not the secretaries), deal with analgesia, prep the new patients for surgery etc…

    “several times and over several hours asking the doctor to take a look at him as she was worried. When he did eventually turn up, he had a go at the poor nurses for disturbing him (probably an important game on the course) before reviewing the patient and then getting even more agitated and blaming the nurses for the gentleman’s deterioration. That about summed up my experiences with doctors during my stay, most had to be forced to visit a patient outside of rounds.”

    So one experience and thats what we are all like? Dude grow up…Whenever we are called to review a sick patient we are there promtly, the only time we may get pissed off is when we aren’t called sooner when a patient begins to get sicker….I am and work with doctors and we never, ever hesitate to get to a patient asap if we are called….unless its a night or weekend when you have to prioritise patient and see them based on severity…

    “From the sounds of your day, it is.”
    Dude I very much doubt anything you do compares with what I do…sounds arrogant but its true…we are always busy, always rushed off our feet and work damn long hours…you have no idea and never ever will have any idea what it is to be responsible for something other than how much stationary to order for the office so of course to you as we are not at the patients bedside 24/7 we must be on the golf course…your unappreciative and ridiculous.

    “That is very little work, for a decent salary. Most graduates (who study for four years, just one year less) end up on starting salaries between £17-£20k, few jobs that I know of start at £40k and even fewer such jobs are 9-5, unless you are counting lawyers again? Many would consider your job a very good one. Most people are, or at least feel, unappreciated in their work, if you want constant reassuration, back patting and encouragement, perhaps you should have been a life coach.”

    four years? No 3 years is the average graduate study time buddy…As for the salary…that is basic i.e. for thirty something hour week…not a 60 something….if I was only working 38 hours I’d only be on 22k…

    “few jobs that I know of start at £40k” Neither does medicine the max is about 32k for a junior doctor.

    I think the big difference is; is that other graduates don’t have to study as hard or for as long or have anywhere close to the level of responsibility doctors have…my career my salary is entirely justified and someone like you could never appreciate or understand how stressful, how long the hours are, how much study we need to do (not you know the usual undergraduate with 4 hours of lectures a week) and how much further study we will always have to do I.e. having to have to work and study for months for post grad exams to progress….
    As for when we are not on the wards etc…not so much the junior doctors…but more senior…when not on the ward or in theatre they will be in outpatient clinics, or dictating letters, or on call etc…
    I just think you have no grasp of what it is that doctors do and how hard we work and that is why your so annoyed at our salaries…maybe you should watch a fly on the wall documentary or something on medics to see what it is we do with our time;
    I have worked in bars, in offices, in call centres and nothing, nothing comes close to the level of exhaustation I feel this year; emotionally and physicially…and my salary for the amount of hours I work as I’ve said before is about £13 per hour…a few quid more than in a call centre…so please do me a favour and stop talking out of your arse…Doctors will always have a relatively high salary to most other people; its not as immense as you make out…but it is decent at the top…but you know what; we are worth every penny of it…

    Don’t blame the world that the only contribution you will likely make to society is this blog; whereas we contribute so much to improve the lives of others.

    • Strange as based on your interpretation we earn so much…surely that would be good incentive?

      I don’t expect someone of your breeding to understand, but some places have the audacity to ask for payments up front, and one’s good name isn’t good enough for credit! Claiming that one will be a doctor in five or ten years time isn’t payment enough I am afraid.

      .surely 100k is the higher end of the earners not the average?

      Consultants average about 90k, you said GPs average 80-90k, not me, I say about £100,000-£250,000 some as high as £300,000. It all works out as an average of £100,000.

      Your missing the point, the basic salary in NHS is 37.5 hours anything above maybe compulsory; oncalls etc but isn’t considered to be part of basic its the increase for doing antisocial hours etc…as nurses and other nhs workers gets.

      I think you are missing the point, if you never work ‘basic’ only hours, then you cannot class it as your salary. It isn’t like commission, it is guaranteed anti-social and extras pay.

      My point was idiot that they won’t have to work 9-5 then do say 5-12 then be back in the next day till the end of the week, then have another 13 hour shift (times 3 for over the weekend) then be back in on monday….

      But they do. I spoke to a nurse during my stay that started at nine am, was finishing at ten pm and was back again at seven am for another 13 hour shift, her third or fourth on the trot. Is that so different? She told me that was normal for nurses. Do you speak to them at all, or are they beneath you?

      So one experience and thats what we are all like? Dude grow up…

      No, that is what the nurses informed me was the norm.

      Dude I very much doubt anything you do compares with what I do…we are always busy, always rushed off our feet and work damn long hours

      I am sure that the man that sweeps the floor of Sainsbury’s every evening thinks the same thing. I never saw a doctor rush, save to tee off.

      you have no idea and never ever will have any idea what it is to be responsible for something other than how much stationary to order for the office

      Ha! I also collect the tea money.

      my career my salary is entirely justified and someone like you could never appreciate or understand how stressful, how long the hours are, how much study we need to do (not you know the usual undergraduate with 4 hours of lectures a week)

      Everyone says the same thing about their jobs and courses, to be a full time course there has to be at least 25 hours of lectures a week, most undergraduates have to fit in lectures, study, assignments as well as part time jobs, something that doctors do not have to worry about! Working evenings, late nights, having lectures in the morning, afternoon, then study and then back to work is quite typical for undergraduates.

      maybe you should watch a fly on the wall documentary or something on medics to see what it is we do with our time;

      I was part of one, it was called a short and unpleasant stay in hospital made worse by lazy and aloof doctors. Perhaps you’ve seen it?

      I have worked in bars, in offices, in call centres and nothing, nothing comes close to the level of exhaustation I feel this year; emotionally and physicially

      Yes but you were younger then right? What are you now, late 20s, past 30? It doesn’t get any easier. Perhaps you should think about a golf buggy to ease the strain?

      but you know what; we are worth every penny of it…

      But that really isn’t for you to judge is it? At the end of the day doctors are there to care for the patients, and if the patients say you are not worth it, you are not worth it.

      Don’t blame the world that the only contribution you will likely make to society is this blog; whereas we contribute so much to improve the lives of others.

      I don’t have to worry about what I have contributed to this country. Yours is an admirable profession, admittedly, but the fact that it is now more closed off than ever, better paid than ever and more elitist than ever cheapens it somewhat, don’t you think?

  9. “I don’t expect someone of your breeding to understand, but some places have the audacity to ask for payments up front, and one’s good name isn’t good enough for credit!”

    I’m actually from a small town in South Wales; my mother is a Health care assistant and my father a roofer…that shit doesn’t wash with me sorry.

    “I think you are missing the point, if you never work ‘basic’ only hours, then you cannot class it as your salary. It isn’t like commission, it is guaranteed anti-social and extras pay. ”

    I’m just telling you how it is in the NHS; we have our basic salary, which depending on the number of oncalls, weekends antisocial hours is scaled up…its how it works in the NHS…it maybe my total salary…but if your comparing like with like i.e. a nurse working 37.5 hours, then you also have to compare the salary of a doctor working 37.5 i.e. unbanded.

    “But they do. I spoke to a nurse during my stay that started at nine am, was finishing at ten pm and was back again at seven am for another 13 hour shift, her third or fourth on the trot. Is that so different?”

    No; they don’t work the amount of hours we work. Despite you saying the above; I agree it is normal for a nurse to work say 3-4 long days of about 12-13 hours…but then they have a decent few days off as their contract is 37.5 hours…if they are working more then they are doing bank shifts…which doesn’t count and they are decently well payed for them…what I’m trying to convey is that they don’t work say 12 (or as I had to work once was 21 days…though that was a one off and isn’t the norm) days straight with loads of 13 hour days interspersed with normal days; without a break…I’m sure there are a few nurses that have done it…but it isn’t a regular occurence as it was with doctors…that is my point.
    Also, some speciality nurses can earn quite alot of money from bank shifts as well…a cardiac HDU nurse can earn £40 an hour on bank…£5 more per hour than the cardiology SHO they have to call if something goes tits up…

    Also, I’ve got on and had awesome working relationships with all the nurses I’ve worked with…and I do not in any way consider myself above them…I work with them for the benefit of the patient…any Doctor that doesn’t appreciate other members of the hospital is an idiot.

    ” I never saw a doctor rush, save to tee off. ”

    You’ve obviously never seen me and my colleagues; or been in a medical emergency then.

    “Everyone says the same thing about their jobs and courses, to be a full time course there has to be at least 25 hours of lectures a week, most undergraduates have to fit in lectures, study, assignments as well as part time jobs, something that doctors do not have to worry about! ”

    Ermmm no they don’t need to be 25 hours to be a full time course…my friends that did english were in about 12 hours a week at the most…its based on academic credits not hours.
    We also have to do assignments, and 9-5 lectures, then 9-5 plus oncalls when on placements, and study and WE also have part time jobs as well…Why is it that we don’t need to worry about part time jobs? Your spouting your tabloid shite again that all doctors are middle class and have their education funded by family…I didn’t and I know many others that didn’t…my family helped me out a bit occasionally, but it wasn’t like I didn’t work..
    Doctors are not exclusively from rich families..

    “called a short and unpleasant stay in hospital made worse by lazy and aloof doctors. Perhaps you’ve seen it?”

    Short and unplesant stay…that says it all SHORT…not enough time to give you insight into what we do.

    “Yes but you were younger then right? What are you now, late 20s, past 30? It doesn’t get any easier. Perhaps you should think about a golf buggy to ease the strain? ”

    I’m 24, was 21 at a call centre and 22 in bar…its the work not my decaying youth that has made this year such a struggle.

    “But that really isn’t for you to judge is it? At the end of the day doctors are there to care for the patients, and if the patients say you are not worth it, you are not worth it. ”

    Possibly not; but are you representing all patients then?
    You take away the moderate financial reward for spending so much time working and studying…and people won’t want to do it…
    Its not all about money; but I like everyone want to be rewarded for the time, energy I have to put into my work…
    As I said earlier about the GPs it isn’t common to earn 300,000 and 250,000k I think there have been a couple of cases in the media thats it…its hardly the norm…the average doctor salary is closer to my estimate than yours…and if after 5 years of study, 2 years of foundation program then 7 years of specialist training and still working 48 hours ( 48 hours plus actually) we are earning 100k….big deal…we’ve worked for it…
    Just look on the guardian jobs website…loads and loads of the jobs i.e. Child welfare managers etc earn 60-65 k, Director HR newcastle council £113k, Director of child services £124k…
    They earn as much as consultants and GPs; and don’t have the whole responsibility for peoples lives and won’t have had to study as long (or have to sit as many post graduate exams etc) yet people don’t seem to bate an eye at those salaries; but for doctors that save lifes, make people well that work nights, and evenings and weekends…its somehow excessive for us to have a decent salary…its strange how people think…

    “but the fact that it is now more closed off than ever, better paid than ever and more elitist than ever cheapens it somewhat, don’t you think?”

    More closed off than ever? how so? The number of students admitted to medical school from working class families (like me) is at its highest….Better paid than it was, but it should be well paid…why is it just because we become Doctors we are expected to not want to have a nice salary and life? We work hard for what we get and as I’ve said before, if you want the best doctors you need to attract the best students, a good salary is part of that.

    • You’ve obviously never seen me and my colleagues; or been in a medical emergency then.

      No, perhaps they were all moving to fast for the naked eye?

      Ermmm no they don’t need to be 25 hours to be a full time course…my friends that did english were in about 12 hours a week at the most…its based on academic credits not hours.

      You’re right, it is 12 hours a week including lectures, tuition, exams etc that is considered full time. Things have certainly got easier since my day.

      Short and unplesant stay…that says it all SHORT…not enough time to give you insight into what we do.

      Any longer and it is unlikely that I’d still be alive.

      yet people don’t seem to bate an eye at those salaries;

      You’re wrong, people do. Personally I believe that public service salaries should be capped. There is no way that a Child Services Director should be earning more than some CEOs of large companies, or more than the Prime Minister. If £119,000 is a decent enough salary to run the country, there is no way that a council staff member should be topping it. At least CEOs and directors have to earn their remuneration, I am not really sure how success would be measured in ‘Child Services’, but I am fairly sure it involves no weekends, evenings or nights.

      In comparison to such jobs I can understand your annoyance, but it is not that you are earning too little, it is that nothing job holders like these are being paid far, far too much.

      More closed off than ever? how so? The number of students admitted to medical school from working class families (like me) is at its highest….

      Not according to the BBC.

      why is it just because we become Doctors we are expected to not want to have a nice salary and life?

      Probably the same reason that nurses aren’t.

  10. “I’m sure your job is much for difficult and draining….

    -From the sounds of your day, it is.”

    I very, very much doubt it mate.

    • Thank you Anonymous from Brighton. I’m presuming you’re a doctor, both by the fact that you are defending doctors (and few others would) and that you apparently live within a stone’s throw of a golf course! What luck eh!

      Anyway, you assume that no one works as hard as doctors, what about firemen? Soldiers? I am sure that coal miners, if such a job exists in modern Britain, face a much tougher daily job that doctors, having to work the coal face, crouch, no air conditioning or comfy seats and certainly no free croissants and coffee.

      I guess it depends on what you mean by difficult and draining. You probably mean so draining that by days end you’re gasping for another coffee and perhaps a cake, whereas I am thinking draining as in can barely stand, can no longer lift your arms over your head and where making a pot of tea is too much hassle before bed.

  11. Haha just because a job isn’t physicially demanding doesn’t mean it isn’t draining (also physicially being a junior house officer is rather demanding…with all the running round we do…I’ve lost about a stone in weight since starting)
    Its draining in the sense that your consistantly having to have to make decisions, come up with a diagnosis, and then when you go home wonder if you’ve done the right thing…it is rather stressful you know making a decision that may ultimately be the wrong one and kill someone…though you’ll thankfully never have to go through feelings like that…so how could you understand?

    In terms of GP salary…I’m going to agree with you that their salaries are big…and am even going to say they do get paid possibly too much; I agree that the 250k-300k is obscene, however it isn’t common for that to happen and the GP will usually be the sole partner in the business/practice. However, we also have to look at the reform within GP practices that caused this increase in salary i.e. the labour government creating a target driven system and financial rewards…the GPs over performed…so it was the system; not the GPs that failed…and despite the large salaries etc….Primary care has better services because of it; the targets were created to end the disparity in GP practices where some would provide hypertension clinics and asthma clinics others didn’t…and now most do; and you have to look in the long term how much money will be saved by practising preventative medicine. Also these salaries with GP practices being told to offer evening services will decrease as the GPs will either have to work longer to earn that salary; or they will need to employ another GP to fill that role…bringing down the average income…

    “Probably the same reason that nurses aren’t. ”

    Nurses are underpaid I agree; but we are different jobs with different demands…I don’t think that Doctors should be paid less (for all the reasons I’ve state previously) but I do think nurses should be paid more for what they do.
    But you should also look at nurses salary a modern matron will be on about 45-50k for a 37.5 hour week…if they worked as long as consultants banking for an additional 10 hours they would earn closer to 70k…I’m not saying nurses get paid well; but if you compared our salaries hour for hour; we’d earn more but not an obscene difference.

    • …it is rather stressful you know making a decision that may ultimately be the wrong one and kill someone…though you’ll thankfully never have to go through feelings like that…so how could you understand?

      What about having to make a decision that, if not thought through properly, or made correctly, can see you and the people around you killed? Making those decisions on a daily basis is draining, yet soldiers do so, day in day out for less than half the pay of even junior doctors.

      What about making a decision that could see you and the person you are rescuing fall to your death, or be burnt alive? Yet fireman make them daily.

      What about a decision that results in a person going free who may harm, or even kill someone else? Police make those kinds of decisions every day.

      You seem to be seeing your job as the most important in the world, but it is not. Each job has stresses and difficult decisions, and there are many jobs that deal with the threat of death each day and all are much lower paid than your own.

      However, we also have to look at the reform within GP practices that caused this increase in salary i.e. the labour government creating a target driven system and financial rewards

      Agreed that it was Labour’s fault, but I don’t agree with the over performing. If I cannot see my doctor now out of hours, yet I could before this contract, I wouldn’t say that he was over performing.

      But you should also look at nurses salary a modern matron will be on about 45-50k for a 37.5 hour week…

      I wouldn’t really say that nurses are underpaid, perhaps not overpaid but close. Now nursing seems to attract the wrong types of people, those too posh to wash as the head of RCN put it once. Certainly my experience taught me that although there were a couple of real nurses, the rest were journey men. Most also complained (like you) that they could earn much more elsewhere, for far less work, and much better hours. When I asked them where, I didn’t get a satisfactory answer of somewhere that they could earn £20k+ basic.

      As for Matrons, they are grossly overpaid. There is no way that a matron should be earning double the salary of a nurse, sure some may ‘manage’ (and I use the term loosely) several wards, but that is obscene. Modern matrons are basically just managers, they no longer work on wards, instead sitting in an office and having ‘meetings’ and shuffling paper. Few if any even wear a uniform. It seems to be the fashion in Britain at present to overpay needless, pointless job holders and neglect those that do the real work.

      Modern matrons have nothing in common with the old matrons except the name.

  12. I suppose the big difference between my job and the other jobs you mention is the level of education required to make my decisions…I admire all the above professions that you mention…however; you don’t need to be particularly smart to do any of them.
    Also in regards to the soldiers and the firemen; neither are continiously making those decisions…infact my ex worked in the fire service and spent more time working out than ‘making decisions that could result in his death’.

    “You seem to be seeing your job as the most important in the world, but it is not. Each job has stresses and difficult decisions, and there are many jobs that deal with the threat of death each day and all are much lower paid than your own. ”

    I disagree; I really do see my job as pretty much the most important…my skills are transferable to any environment and will ALWAYS be required..Yes the fire service are required to save people from the fire…but without us to deal with the third degree burns and the ARDS caused by smoke inhalation what would be the point? In a major disaster we could fly a red flag and people from miles around would travel to see us…so yeah I will always see my career as being one of the most important…if not the most important thats one of the reasons I choose it. When the fire service went on strike the army could provide a fire service…if we went on strike…the entire NHS would come to a grinding halt…as no other professional in the NHS can do what we do.

    “there are many jobs that deal with the threat of death each day and all are much lower paid than your own.”

    But few require the dedication to education and training to make those decisions. Medicine attracts the best students; because it requires the best students.

    “If I cannot see my doctor now out of hours, yet I could before this contract, I wouldn’t say that he was over performing.”

    Many practices are being made to stay open later. Overperforming isn’t just based on out of hours service though; its also based on the clinics they provide, the blood pressures they are controlling, etc…its about primary prevention…which = cost effective medicine.

    ” Most also complained (like you) that they could earn much more elsewhere, for far less work, and much better hours.”

    I’m not complaining about what I earn; I’m meerly defending it. And I do think I could earn more for less. As I’ve said before my hourly wage is about 13 pounds…
    I went to a professionals night a couple of weeks back; and got speaking to the likes of bankers, lawyers, editors, accountants etc…and all of them lived in really nice areas of london, all of them drove nice cars all of them seemed to have their weekends and evenings free…yet me the ‘draining doctor’ lives in a house share, doesn’t have a car, and has over 50k in debts to repay.

    Also spoke to a staff nurse today who has 3 years post graduate experience, (I am half way through my first year of being qualified…but I trained for 3 years longer)…and she earns more than me…for around 4 hours less than me (thats official hours btw not the amount extra I do).

    I’ve noticed a theme in your posts that you seem to attribute hard work; with actual physicial demands…i.e those that wash the patients, those that make the beds, those that work in mines etc…thats important…yet you don’t really seem to attribute much to those that are paid to think and work things out and actually get the patient well in my case…or in the case of modern matrons being paid to organise and oversea the running of the wards (and matrons do mostly wear uniforms).
    I don’t really think I’ll ever convince you that doctors work hard to earn what they earn…I suppose actually working and seeing how hard we work is nullified by the fact I’m one so am likely to be biased…but you however have basically zero experience with the NHS or doctors and yet make declarations like ‘modern matrons’ are nothing like the old school matrons…I mean what do you know of the previous matrons? What do you know of the roles they filled? …your entire blog really is just somewhere that you can rant really about things you know nothing about…but I suppose thats what blogs are for isn’t it?

  13. Doctors are over worked and work very hard to earn what they earn

    • That may be the case, but I still think that they earn too much, and worse, the Government in its infinite wisdom has decided that they should earn more. A quarter of a million pounds a year just doesn’t get you into the same golf clubs that it once did.

  14. Just out of interest what do you do Charlie and how many years/how much money have you put into your education?

    • Hello Jo, thanks for commenting.

      I don’t like to give too much information about myself away, particularly after what happened to a friend of mine, and as I have already mentioned my name and location many times, adding my occupation or any further information about myself would make it possible for any Tom, Dick or Harry to find my address. I doubt that there are many Charles Wilson’s doing what I do in my area.

      Suffice to say that my University education lasted five years, and cost about £25-£30,000 in today’s money.

  15. Medics are always giving themselves praise that their “duties” are so important and contrasting their prowess over other professions, justified by lengh of education. however scientists develope all their medical technology and are pararell in length and depth of education.

    I have a 4 year Bsc (Hons) in Biomedical Sciences and PhD in Molecular Medicine with over 15 publications and over 10 years medical research experience (tumour suppressors and cancer stem cells). I attributed to the development of Protein kinase inhibitors that will revoluntionise cancer treatment.

    I will say this, that the vast of majority medics are glorified pill administrators, with the exceptions of surgeons. Research scientists are nowhere near as well paid as medics, yet they are the people that truely develope effective medicine’s. They are educated for around 7 year to the highest academic level there is, yet there pay is poor for the majority of researchers. However, pay was not the orginal reason i went into that profession, it was the ability to make a differnce and challenge of the finding things out for the benefit of society. The number of times i have seen medics of different levels take credit for certain drug development that is not their’s is unreal. Medics are the most arrogant and ignorant professionaks around. When intellectually challenged by an academic (after medic loses the intellectual battle), they always result to salary comparisons and the Quote “i save lives” (they are pathetic). A farmer could claim he saves lives, with the food he provides!! we all attribute in different ways, but medics are on the chalice of course.

    Medical research is largely carried out by PhD level scientists. they are underappreciated, yet there work props up all medical development bar none. Now what do you think about that?

    the hypocratic oath has been replaced by the hypocritic version…

    power corrupts… medics have a hedgmony on the NHS and it’s only because they are fantastic hynotising skills with the general public that they have it this way… FEAR over health issues is a fantastic bargaining chip for them…

    medics are of course, superior to all other human beings (intellectual or not), they have no equal??? even nobel prize winners tremble when they speak with their doctor.

    • Thanks for comment and I apologise for missing off scientists, and you are exactly right that they do the same and more in terms of education, yet do not lord it over the other hospital staff (and other people in general), nor are they paid as much. Clearly there is an imbalance in the profession and it seems to be getting worse and vehemently justified by the doctors. On my most recent visit I saw a doctor flatly refuse to talk to a nurse about a patient because he ‘didn’t talk to nurses’, the kind of mentality that belongs in the 1950s but reinforced by the ridiculous pay and prestige given to doctors in modern Britain.

      power corrupts… medics have a hedgmony on the NHS and it’s only because they are fantastic hynotising skills with the general public that they have it this way… FEAR over health issues is a fantastic bargaining chip for them…

      Precisely, brilliantly put and with the drug companies manufacturing their own pandemics and epidemics every few years to bolster revenue, I fear that it won’t get any better.

  16. I cannot agree with your arguments in this article. Training to become a consultant takes 14 years, the responsibility they have is enormous because ultimately they are in charge of a ward full of very sick people, many of whom have delicate and complex social problems which makes their treatment much harder; and in an era where footballers are earning £100,000 a week for kicking a ball about on a pitch, your attack of NHS doctors seems grossly unfair and shortsighted. How many lives do these doctors save? On a daily basis their decisions can have great personal consequence to their patients not to mention professional ramifications. How would you fancy operating for 5 hours in the middle of the night on a child who has just been hit by a drunken driver? Perhaps you should spend sometime in a hospital shadowing a consultant about. I have no doubt that your opinion would change. You mentioned that german doctors earn far less than their British counterparts. In my book they are underpaid and deserve to have a much higher compensation in line with their personal responsibilities and risks they take. I do agree that the NHS is underfunded but this is not due to doctor salaries, rather the enormous cost of funding poor lifestyles choices made by the British public. So please think twice before attacking the very people who work night and day in trying to help them.

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