One of the most viewed posts on this blog, especially over the past few days – no doubt due to the Olympics, is White Men Can’t Run. Anyone hoping for a white man to reach the Olympic final, let alone to run under 10s or even grab a medal, was sorely disappointed.
Marian WoroninMarian Woronin’s 1984 ‘record’ remains unmatched, let alone beaten, but I thought I would take a look and see just how far the fastest white man got in the 100m and what the fastest time was.
The only non black athlete (or athlete not of African descent) who reached the semi finals was Naoki Tsukahara of Japan who ran 10.16s (he has a PB of 10.15s). No white athlete made it past the second round and the fastest in that round was Craig Pickering of Britain at 10.18s (he has a PB of 10.14s).
Pickering is Britain’s No.2 sprinter (3 if you count Dwain Chambers, but no one does), but is only ranked 13th on Britain’s all time list. The top British white sprinter is Allan ‘Wipper’ Wells, ranked tenth with 10.11s, which he ran 28 years ago.
This makes me wonder all the more about Woronin, he only ever ran that fast once, he never ran under 10.20s again, rarely under 10.30s, yet in nearly 25 years, only one man has really even come close.
The ‘official’ list of top white sprint times is:
- 10.00 (+2.0) Marian Woronin (POL) 09.06.1984
- 10.01A (0.0) Pietro Mennea (ITA) 04.09.1979
- 10.03A (0.0) Nicolas Macrozonaris (CAN) 03.05.2003
- 10.03 (-0.1) Matthew Shirvington (AUS) 17.09.1998
- 10.06A (+2.0) Johan Rossouw (RSA) 23.04.1988
Nicolas Macrozonaris of Canada ran 10.03s in 2003, but that was at altitude. If you’re wondering what difference that would have made, it was the same place that Pietro Mennea ran his 10.01s at the 100m and his amazing 19.72s at 200m. Macrozonaris next best after that was 10.19s ran in 2000.
Matt Shirvington ran his way back in 1998, it wasn’t at altitude, there was no wind (in fact there was a slight headwind) and more importantly for me, it wasn’t a one off. In 1999 he ran 10.07s, he has also run 10.09s. He is still running today aged 29, his best this year is 10.35s.
Matt Shirvington
Next is Johan Rossouw of South Africa, his time is also impressive, but when you consider that it was run at altitude with the maximum allowed headwind, and it was a feat that he never repeated, it isn’t so impressive.
In fact if it wasn’t for Matt Shirvington’s time, I wouldn’t believe Woronin’s mark at all unless he ran it at altitude with +4.5ms wind at his back, but he ran it in Warsaw, with the maximun +2.0 wind.
A white man running under 10.00s seems to be a physical impossibility, even today with the advances in training and legal supplements and so on it is proving to be an unattainable goal for white sprinters.
Shirvington is something of an enigma, other than Woronin’s dubious time, no one else has got that close to the magic ten second barrier other than at altitude. Linford Christie ran his best time aged 33, so at 29 Shirvington isn’t quite over the hill yet. That said he hasn’t run under 10.20s for five years, so the magic 10s barrier is likely to elude him.
But what about those who aren’t white, but aren’t of African descent? Surprisingly, the elusive ten second barrier has been reached by an athlete of non African origin (I believe the correct term is non sub-Saharan African origin).
Koji Ito of Japan ran 10.00 dead in Bangok in 1998, there was a +1.9 m/s wind but still an acheivement. The Japanese have some good sprinter, with Naoki Tsukahara reaching the semi finals of the 100m in Beijing and Japan claiming a bronze in the 4x100m relays, but they still have never had an athlete under 10s.
In fact only one athlete not of sub-Saharan African descent has ever broken the 10s barrier – Patrick Johnson. The Australian record holder has an aborginal mother and an Irish father and in Mito Japan in 2003 he clocked an amazing time of 9.93s in the 100m, aged 30 years old. Sadly that was his best time by quite some way, his second best being 10.10s, set in 2000.
Whilst this does show that it is possible for non black athlete’s to break the 10s barrier, I still think it is an impossibility for white athletes. In 1984 when Woronin ran his time the world record time was 9.93s, (the ten second barrier having been broken in 1968 by Jim Hines), so he really wasn’t far away from it. 24 years on it has been broken ten times and is currently 9.69s set by Usain Bolt, whilst Woronin’s time still stands and is now 0.31s away from the world record.
Surely if it were possible a white man would have made a sub 10s 100m by now? Personallly I think that in 100 years people will still be waiting for a white man to break the ten second barrier.
On the 9th July 2010, 20 year old Frenchman Christophe Lemaitre broke the 10s barrier with a time of 9.98s. You can read the update to this topic here. Or you can read another post, covering this topic from a slightly different angle.
Charlie's Space 
Im doing some sociolgy research for a university coursework and came across…
10.0 Armin Hary (West Germany) – June 21 1960
that was a world record but then it was declared void as the track exceeded the maximum 1ocm slope by 1cm. His fastest other than a false start when he ran 10.00 was 10.2 at the 1960 olympics.
But can youvarify what i have found so far… that the last time there was an all white olympic 100m final was in 1928, the last white athlete to appear in a 100m olympic final was Wells in 1980 and since then there has not been a white athlete in the final. and that the fastest white 10.00 (+2.0) Marian Woronin (POL) 09.06.1984.
Hi Debs,
Armin Hary did have the world record of 10.00, after the false start there was a re-run in which he set the world record, but he did indeed win the 1960 final in 10.2.
I didn’t include Hary’s time, nor the other earlier 10.0 sprinters as they were manually timed. The official IAAF rules on hand timing are that 0.24s should be added to any time in the 50-300m distance, and 0.14s for 400m, anything hand timed above 400m is accepted as is.
I think that the fastest unadjusted manual time is 9.7 by Carl Lewis, which he ran in 1995, his fastest automatic time that year was 10.25, which gives you some idea of the difference manual timing makes.
Not sure about the last all white final, but you’re right, there hasn’t been a white athlete in a Olympic 100m final since 1980. But Wells wasn’t the only white athlete in that final there were five. There were no Americans because of the boycott but three black athletes made the final, two Cubans and a Frenchman I think.
Marian Woronin was also in that final along with two Russians and a Bulgarian, (Woronin ran 10.46).
The last time a white athlete won in a non boycotted 100m Olympic final was 1972 when Valeri Borzov won it, he was just off my list with a PB of 10.07.
Officially Marian Woronin’s time is the fastest time by a white athlete, I say officially but this ‘record’ isn’t recognised by the IAAF, although his time is.
…so Charlie you were completely wrong!! Now we have the 100% Caucasian Christophe LeMaitre, who has run 9.98 seconds and is only 20 years old. That is faster than Tyson Gay and Asafa Powell ran at the same age !!
Perhaps this has more to do with the numbers of Caucasians and other races focusing on sprinting. An overall % of Afro-Caribbeans are better at spinting and that probably makes a lot of other races look to different sports. LeMaitre is unusual in the same way as Usain Bolt but if he can do it (with a natural sprint design that is very different to the manufactured physiques we are used to seeing) then i am sure others will follow.
Thanks for commenting Arun.
I hope you’re right, but Lemaitre, like Shirvington before him is likely to be an exception, rather than some new rule. White sub-10.1s are still pretty rare with white athletes, let alone sub 10s, and I don’t see that changing in the short, to medium term.
The articles figures for Woronin are completely WRONG. He also ran 10.11 (after ’84), 10.14 (after ’84), 10.14, 10.15,10.16, and a number of more times under 10.20.
Thanks for the comment Rich, but I haven’t found any information that back up your claim, if you have proof please post it.
In the 1980 Olympic Final Woronin only managed 10.46. His best in that Olympics was just 10.27.
In 1982 European Championships final he ran 10.28 to get a Bronze, his best time in that competition.
In 1984 his 10.00 year, he didn’t compete in the Olympic due to the boycott, Carl Lewis won in a time of 9.99s, (had Woronin been there, he could have got silver).
In 1986 he didn’t even make the semi’s of the European Championship, even though a time of 10.28 would have got him into the final.
These seem to be the only recorded times of Woronin, other than his PB.
This article seems to be attracting a lot of controversy! So I thought that I would put a few things straight.
Wells and Woronin may have looked good on the European circuit and in a handful of races, but they were running 10.20s and 10.30s, when the WR was 9.95/3 and the top athletes were running around and even under 10s.
This is evident in the fact that even Allan Wells could not make the 100m final in 1984, despite the boycott.
Sadly the top white athlete just weren’t in the same league. Which is why Linford Christie was European Champion from 1986-1994 and why there hasn’t been a white European Champion since 1982.
This site maybe very useful to you:
http://run-down.com/statistics/mens_100m_top10.php
I corroborated some of the timings using ‘The International Track & Field Annual ’88’. It has a useful year by year progression of the featured athlete’s event(s). The reason why you might not have come across these other timings is because they probably didn’t occur at major events/championship, and therfore aren’t widely available; or the athlete may have run several fast times in one year but only the fastest for that year is indicated.
Rich
In 1984 Wells was passed his best. In peak, form he probably would have reached the final, and probably no more (I’d have to check the winning semi-finalists time).
Non-altitude sub 10’s were very rare up to the mid eighties (believe there were only).
For example there were no sub 10’s 78-82. They became more frequent in the late eighties; but there had been only only 3 sub 10 non-altitude performers upto and including 1987 (excluding BJ).
Thanks for the link Rich, very interesting.
The times that I had for Woronin were a mixture of major championships and also, for the first article, White Men Can’t Run, I had a list of the top European times year by year, but I can’t remember where I got that from.
It’s a shame there are no dates of when and where Woronin ran those times. Surprisingly, if those times are correct, Woronin was on a par with Allan Wells (whose best was 10.11s) even without that dubious 10s dead. But he just didn’t seem to produce his best at the major championships.
There’s nothing in Woronin’s others times that makes me any more confident that his time is bona fide. He has a pretty big gap between his PB and his next best time. Certainly a lot bigger than his contemporaries such as Wells; the only comparable person is Pietro Mennea, who of course ran his time at altitude.
Still, it looks as though he was a better athlete than I gave him credit for.
Thanks for the comment Anonymous,
You’re right, I think it was only Lewis and Calvin Smith who were breaking the ten second barrier in the early 80s, but since then plenty more athletes have, but none of them have been white.
That said it is still something of an achievement for black athletes to break 10s too. I was talking down Pickering’s achievements (now 14th on Britain’s all time list with 10.14), but only three Briton’s have ever gone under 10s; Linford Christie (9.87), Dwain Chambers (9.97) and Jason Gardener (9.98), and two of those have served bans for taking drugs.
Mark Lewis Francis, Christian Malcolm, John Regis, Darren Campbell and Marlon Devonish haven’t broken 10s either.
Charlie, enjoyed your interesting posts,
Up till some years ago, I saw the white sprinter as realistically 0.20-0.25 behind the black sprinter. And as you say no improvement from whites, and as can be seen continuing improvement from blacks, which could well inicate whites have already maximised their sprinting potential, whereas blacks haven’t. That gap is now of course widening.
It is interesting to note, that modern Japanese sprinters are now outclassing all white european nation spinters in terms 100m timings. An oriental sprinter will probably go sub 10 before a white european.
Woronin beat Carl Lewis with that 10:11. He was legit.
Thanks for the comment Rich,
I agree, I think it likely that white sprinters have peaked and I doubt we’ll ever see a white 100m world record holder again.
It is interesting about the Japanese sprinters. I remember in Barcelona in 92 watching the 100m heats and laughing at the top Japanese sprinters who couldn’t run under 10.5s. I’m not laughing now. Clearly the Japanese have got serious with their sprinting and made some remarkable improvements. As for a sub 10s, they certainly have more chance then white sprinters at the moment. Ito Koji came close running 10s dead aged 28, Tsukahara Naoki is only 23, so still has time.
Pretty shallow and closed minded to say a white will never run under 10 wouldn’t you say? or wouldn’t one say?
Not really. It is entirely possible that Adriana Lima may knock on my door, invite herself into my home for a cup of tea, fall for my manly charms and get the shagging of her life. But not very likely is it?
Just because something is possible, doesn’t make it probable. On the evidence, the history and the times of all the hundreds of white athletes who try every year, it appears extremely unlikely.
It is quite conceiveable that I could be wrong, but highly unlikely.
You’re an American, and I think it is more of an issue there. But in Europe most sprinters are white, they’re just not very good. Americans seem to hold out the hope that if a white sprinter makes it through the ranks they can break 10s. In Europe we see that even full teams of white sprinters seem to be pegged around the 10.10-10.30s area.
Why is black IQ pegged at a full standard deviation below whites?
Guess blacks have maxed out.
oooh… Correct dippo… Its all fine saying that black people can run faster etc… But let people mention that black people are the most intellectually inferiour and criminal poeple on the planet, by far… and you are in trouble. Which people and chinese etc are MUCH smarter than black people. By a gap far larger than that between blacks and whites in sprinting.
So why no article on “Blacks can’t make it intellectually” or “blacks can’t run any society larger than a village” or “blacks top the list in crime” or a whole host of articles like that.
Nah… I guess the fact that they can run faster is more important than all that.
sorry, meant “white people and Chinese”…
Thank you for the comment Marwan.
I’d point out that your above comment was ironic, but I doubt that you’d understand what that meant.
You say that black people are your intellectual inferiors, whilst struggling to spell both inferior, people and ironically even white. Sure we all make spelling mistakes, but claiming intellectual superiority whilst making them is shooting yourself in the foot.
As for the IQ question itself, I have heard it mentioned many times, but never seen any evidence of it. But one only need look at the view of blacks in the 17th and 18th century to see that it most likely isn’t true.
Back then people believed that Negroes had the strength of ten men, were an inferior sub species, were unable to be taught how to read or write and incapable of any form of intellectual development. In reality these were myths that those who profited from the slave trade bandied about (and ironically originated in Africa) and have since been proven to be false.
The number of black doctors in modern society shows that this IQ myth is also on shaky ground.
As for the criminal part, I don’t think that any normal, rational human being would argue that the crime rate within the black community is far, far higher than it should be, although some people claim that as long as the majority whites are committing more crimes than blacks, all is fine and dandy! But hopefully such blinkered views are rare.
I also agree that whilst it is fine to point out the racial positives, it is strictly taboo to point out negatives, even though it is impossible to have one without the other. But that is modern Britain for you.
AA couple of points.First,as an American,I’d like ti think the 1980 Olympics would have been different had we been there.But,shortly after that (1980)Olympics Sports Illustrated opined onn that c alling it’jingoistic nonsense’ an American would have won.Points;Wells semi(10.110 was virtyually the same as Stanley Floyd’s (our #1 sprinter) 10.07 best.Moreover,the Moscow track was considered a slow track,and the outside lane-into which Wells was placed had been (designed) so as to create a headwind for whomever was in the lane when the stadium doors were open.Traditionally,the fastest qualifier got to pick his choice of lanes .Not that time.
It’s been about 30nyears sincew reading that,but I have an exceptional memory,so I stand by it.
Secondly,Borzov would likely have broken 10 flat in ’72 had it been necessary.He wasn’t pressed at his Olympics.
A couple of other points.A hand timing is generally accepted as .16 of a seconds difference.And I do feel that ‘Black ” athletes are faster than ‘White’.But I don’t really care.
Thanks for the comment corwin.
People keep questioning this as if I made it up, or that it is my own personal opinion. The IAAF (International Association of Athletic Federations) official rules are that 0.24s should be added for anytime 300m or below. In other words if I ran at my local track and ran a manually timed PB tomorrow of 10.10s and tried to register it officially, it would be rounded up to an official time of 10.34s.
Interesting point about Sports Illustrated, I didn’t know that about the track. I have also believed that had the Americans been there, Wells would have been lucky with a medal. Impossible to tell though as sometimes an athlete will run a PB in the Olympics, other times they won’t even get near their SB.
Not sure about Borzov, but other than Mennea and Rossouw’s altitude times, and Woronin’s dubious one, he was something of a freak and his time stood for 25 years. Maybe he really could have broken 10s, there is certainly only him and Shirvington who, at least as far as I am concerned, could have.
Charlie, you’re way off base. I’ve studied these issues of race for years, and there is as much if not more supporting evidence for the intellectual inferior of West Africans than there is for the inferiority of white sprinters.
Here’s the deal: we are different. Blacks have narrower hips and a skeletal structure better constructed for running; they also have a higher ratio of fast twitch (Type 1) muscle fibers as opposed to the slow twitch muscles. The former produce power and strength, but exhaust quickly. The latter are geared towards endurance. I can go into further detail if you’d like.
The reason blacks post better 100m times and do better as wide receivers and running backs in the NFL while white athletes dominate powerlifting, Olympic lifting and other strength sports is because white people are genetically predisposed to strength whereas blacks are predisposed to power. Power is the rapid application of force, whilst strength is the overall contractile force. A powerful dude might post a 38 inch vertical jump, whereas another dude might squat 450 pounds. Power vs. strength.
No one mentions how whites dominate endurance sports. White athletes dominate the elite levels of triathlons, Iron Man comps., cycling, distance running (the exception being East Africans from a specific geographic area) etc. West Africans can’t even compete manage to compete in these areas.
Yes, we are different. However, the difference isn’t nearly as big as you think. The reason a white man has not run under 10 in the 100m is not because of our genetics, but due to our defeatist attitude. Very few white men run track these days, and those that do generally aren’t focussing on sprinting. How many potential great sprinters are playing in the NFL, or competing in soccer, rugby or boxing? How is it that white sprinters dominated the sport for the first half of the century, without the aid of modern running shoes, a good track, modern training techniques, an understanding of sports medicine and physiology, or steroids? The best white sprinters existed in a time when sprinting was in its infancy. This does not add up. From childhood we are taught that blacks are superior in certain athletic respects, while at the same time we are taught not to believe in the intellectual inferiority of these people. We pick and choose our prejudices.
This is wrong and is unjustifiable. I’ve lived among rednecks in Washington and Texas, and for the last four years have lived in Detroit Michigan. There is a HUGE advantage black athletes have, and that is self-confidence. They are taught the superiority of black athletes from childhood, that they can’t lose, and this gives them a huge edge. It is also their only way out, they are also taught that they can’t compete with the white man intellectually. Things may be different in the UK, but American blacks are notorious underachievers and it is due to the attitude of the culture.
We’ll see a sub-10 white 100m eventually. One problem is that white athletes seem to be far less inclined to use steroids than black athletes. I assure you just about ever sub-10 100m was aided by steroids or amphetamines, or serums to improve oxygen usage. I’m not talking about creatine.
In closing: looking at the dearth of white sprinters at an elite level and concluding a biological handicap is as sensible as looking at blacks and Africa and concluding they are intellectually/behaviorally handicapped. There might be SOME truth in there, but it has more to do with environment and culture than anything else.
Thanks for the comment Ross.
That’s quite a bold statement, I presume that you can back that statement up with evidence?
I seem to be hearing this a a lot lately, but this isn’t the case in Europe.
Most Eastern European countries have no black athletes in their sprint teams. Countries like Russia, Poland, Bulgaria, Romania, as well as Sweden, Norway etc only have white sprinters to choose from. They are not being held back by black athletes, they do not have a defeatist attitude, yet they still cannot run under 10s. Even in Western Europe, like Britain and Germany, white sprinters still regularly make it through the ranks. The second fastest British sprinter of the year so far is white.
It may be the case in the US that white sprinters drift into other sports because they believe that they will not do well, but in Europe it isn’t the case. In fact it would be fair to say that in Europe the vast majority of sprinters are white, but it is just that the best are black. Australia too has a pretty good sprint programme and most of its sprinters are white, yet only Shirvington has ever come close to 10s.
It seems be a common complaint that white sprinters just aren’t getting the breaks, but the reality in the rest of the world is that even the white elite, just cannot compete with the black elite. There are 700 million white people in Europe, yet none of them have ever run under 10s.
No, things are the same here, and in the rest of Europe.
Another excuse that I hear a lot but there have been just as many, if not more white athletes caught out as drug cheats as black ones. I’ve put this list elsewhere on the internet but I’ll post it here too. These are white sprinters that have failed drug tests in the past 15 years, as well as Mennea.
Falk Balzer (German 110m hurdler), Gary Cadogan (British Hurdler), Dougie Walker (British Sprinter), Dean Capobianco (Australian Sprinter), Christophe Cheval (French Sprinter), Sébastien Denis (French Hurdler), Gábor Dobos (hungarian 100m runner), Anastasios Gousis (Greek Sprinter), Hristoforos Hoidis (another Greek sprinter – PB of 10.14), Pietro Mennea (PB 10.01, 19.72), Géza Pauer (Hungarian Sprinter), Dimítrios Régas (yet another Greek Sprinter), and Andrey Rudnitskiy (Russian Sprinter)…and many more…
They may not be big name athletics but all were either top sprinters for their nation, or national record holders. Whites cheat too, probably more so as they need to compete with blacks.
Look at that :
Line 3
Line 5
That guy is 18, 10’26 on 100m, and he improved this winter his PB on 60 m (6’73 to 6’64)
His name is Christophe Lemaitre from France (which mean the master 🙂 )
16: 10’96
17 : 10’53
18 : 10’26
He broke the national french record for 60m indoor for a junior (6’64).
I follow him since 2007, and i’m pretty sure he’ll be the first white under 10 sec if he improves his start (he is tall).
He became last year the worl junior champion on 200m (20’83).
He’ll represent France for the european championship indoor in Turin (6-8 march)
Thanks for the comment, he is clearly talented, but whether he’ll break the 10s barrier is another matter.
Craig Pickering was running the same kind of times at the same age but is still yet to break 10.10s.
I will certainly be keeping an eye on him though, but I won’t be getting my hopes up.
I undertand your doubts.
But Chritophe is really faster than Pickering at the same age (200m : 20’83 vs 21’34 for Pickering, 100m 10’26 vs 10’41, and 60m 6’64 vs 6’84 http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/biographies/country=GBR/athcode=192553/index.html.
But the thing interesting is that guy is 6’3 (1m90), so he has long legs, not like other white guys who were small.
But that’s right we have to be careful but, that guy is the best hope to see a white under 10sec.
Thanks Jim.
I didn’t realise he was so tall! He’s almost as tall as Usain Bolt (6′ 5), so if he can use that height in the same way….
You’re right he is actually faster than Pickering at the same age. I will be keeping an eye on him, and if he can break the 10.10s barrier in the next few years, well you never know!
The first white man to break 10.00 seconds for the 100 meter dash will have the initials
N.
M.
M.
Wait and watch. Perfection will come.
I agree totally with your researched figures and conclusions. Marian Woronin’s time should not be given a second thought considering where it was set, the wind assistance (max legal) and the “home town” venue especially since he was never close when performing on the world stage.
Johnson’s 9.93 was a spike and measurably the peak of his career performance graph, and I saw Matt Shirvington usually take care of him whenever they met (here in Australia).
Shirvington is the only one who has comes close to repeating his times on a world stage and in not so sprint friendly conditions. Unfortunately injury and illness (glandular fever) took its toll before marriage, business and two children usurped his energies.
I am at variance to you on one minor point. Considering three of Matt’s times equate to sub 10 had they had the maximum permissable wind asistance, a sprinter to come along of equal ability and more favourable conditions will break ten sooner or later.
This is no way infers that they will go near Bolt’s WR though
Thanks for the comment Steve.
I had wondered what happened to Matt Shirvington, marriage and kids explains it all!
I think that Matt Shirvington is something of an enigma and doesn’t receive the credit that I believe he is due. You may be right that his times would have equated a sub 10 in more favourable conditions, but sadly I think that we’ll be waiting a long time for another Matt Shirvington to test the 10s barrier.
I was hoping that with the Olympics in 2012, Britain would pump far more money into athletics in preparation for the event (something along the lines of the Australian sprint program), and that we may see more top quality British sprinters (and some white) sadly that seems not to be the case at all. The last place the Government will be spending money in relation to the Olympics, is actually on future athletes.
Lots of factor are at play here…there seems to be some evidence that sprinters with descendents from W Africa have a genetic predisposition to sprinting, of course the colour of their skin is simply incidental (they also all have black hair) focusing on ‘race’ as an indicator of this advantage rather than simply geographic location would maybe be more useful.
Apart from this possible genetic predisposition I believe socio-economic factor have a big role to play in the development of sprinters…In the US sprint events are predominantly taken up at a serious level by ‘black’ athletes, this probably is a sign of the relative low cost of taking part in athletics as compared with other sports which would tend to put off black kids from less affluent backgrounds. There is also the effect of role models, with no successful white sprinter to look up to white kids are less likely to take up the sport and coaches and trainers might even be selecting black kids over whites as the perception that black kids run faster gathers more credibility. This could be compounded by the fact that many black kids tend to develop physically quicker at a young age and are picked at this early stage over slower developing white kids.
What you say about the state of European sprinting is more compelling but even here other factors are at play. In Europe the biggest sporting attraction amongst young boys is Football (soccer) not athletics more promising naturally athletic boys are more likely to take up football at an early age and from my own experience in youth athletics in the UK trying to get boys to take part in Athletic meets when there is a rival football event is very difficult, so it could be a case that for many promising white European sprinters are being lost to other more popular sports. This coupled with the lack of white sprinting role models could explain why no exceptional white sprinters have come through in the last few years.
One final point about the Italian sprinter Mennea who held the 200m world record of 19.72 from 1979-1996…yes this was set at high altitude BUT he also held the low altitude 200m world record 19.96 from 1980 -1983
Thanks for the comment MadMax.
Some interesting points, particularly about Mennea, I had no idea that he had also run a 19.96.
Many people here have hit some good points. Worldwide sprinting is viewed as a black sport, and blacks have more confidence in it. Also whites are discouraged even in Europe for this same reason. Charlie has ignored the fact that steroids has become prevalent in athletics sice Carl lewis, and that is why the difference has went from .1 seconds to .3 seconds. Thirdly, if whites don’t have explosive muscles why do they dominate high jump (best 9 of 10 jumps and highest vertical leap in Stefan Holm), have the world record in triple jump, and recently have been doing the best in long jump too (Sebastian Bayer). Charlie, you could not be more wrong.
Thanks for the comment Jake.
I haven’t ignored it, but you seem to be implying that only blacks take steroids. Please see my comment above, there I have posted a long but very far from complete list of all the white athletes that have taken steroids.
It is a fair assumption that if the top black athletes are taking them, then so are the top white athletes it just isn’t enough.
I think you are comparing carrots and apples there. Long jump and 100m are similar, and again dominated by blacks. Jonathan Edwards the triple jump world record holder had a 100m PB of just 10.48, not even in the top 100 UK sprinters.
The evidence appears to say the contrary. Despite advances in training, supplements and steroids, a white sprinter still hasn’t broken 10.00s.
I have heard British eurosport comments for say Johnathan edwards was testing both Linford and Colin (Jackson) over 30m
I think we have to be careful about talking about ‘black’ athletes as having an advantage in general when it comes to sprinting…there is no evidence for this. The ‘evidence’ that exists deals with athletes from a West African background… yes they could all be classed has black but there are plenty of ‘black’ athletes from non-west african background who do not show this advantage. So being black is not a factor but having origins from West Africa might be.
Also the point made about 100m and long jump being similar is valid in that basic flat speed is needed in the long jump BUT there are some very successful long jumpers who are not ‘black’ or from West Africa the most obvious example is the German L Jumper Sebastian Bayer who broke the indoor European record this year with a jump of 8.71m a very respectable jump by any measure. In fact the world rankings are not solely dominated by ‘black’ athletes.
at number 1 we have Irving SALADINO from panama who is ‘black’ and so is the number 3 Godfrey Khotso MOKOENA from South Africa
but the rest of the top 5 are not
2. Hussein Taher AL SABEE (Saudi)
3. Fabrice LAPIERRE (australian)
5. Sebastian BAYER (German)
so it is not clear cut.
I would say that sheer speed is somewhere above 90% of what it takes to be an elite sprinter. Sheer speed is also the key ingredient in long jumping – but it’s somewhat less of a percentage than in sprinting. In long jumping, technique takes on a larger percentage than it does in sprinting (which is not to say it technique does not play a role in sprinting!!). I long jumping – and even more so in high-jumping, technique plays a major role in success.
Many Saudis are of mixed origin – many have part Sub-Saharan ancestry. Do we know of Al Sabee? And if part Sub-Saharan, could we possibly know if his ancestry is of West Africa – or its diaspora to Southeast and Southern Africa?
Hi.
Naoki Tsukahara ran 10.13 this month.
Do you think he might have a chance to break the barrier?
To achieve the feat he needs to have good wind assist him though.
As for a white sprinter dipping the 10s barrier I think it is possible but shall be very difficult.
I dont know when that happens but I believe we will see someday.
Thanks for the comment S.K.
Tsukahara certainly does look good, I was impressed with him in the Olympics and he’s looking much better this year.
I think that the way things are, we are much more likely to see a Japanese sprinter break the 10s barrier, than a white one.
Charlie,
There is no evidence that white people do not possess the “fast twitch muscles” to win the 100 meter. Whites dominate high jump and shot put, not to mention hold the decthalon world record. If those events don’t require fast-twitch muscles then neither does sprinting.
The fact of the matter is not many white people care about sprinting, or pursue professional sports in general. But they did back in the 1980s and earlier. There are only a few white sprinters trying to make it like Christian Blum, Craig Pickering, Christophe Lemaitre, and Fabio Cerutti. They are just as talented as blacks but there are just not many of them. I know many white people are capable of running in the mid 10s in my town alone, and I raced against a kid from the next town over who ran a 10.98 FAT.
After the last white gold medal, Allen Wells (10.11,10.25 lane 8), there have been all black gold medallists. Maurice Greene, Justin Gatlin, Tim Montgomery, Usain Bolt, Carl lewis, and Donovan Bailey. Justin Gatlin and Tim Montgomery have both tested postive for steroids, Maurice Greene has a trail of paying for steroids, and Usain Bolt is from jamaica (a steroid history and they are using them now, but it will com out), and Donovan Bailey is from Canada (Ben Johnson ring a bell?). Usain Bolt and Bailey have beaten most of the cheaters I just listed, so odds are they are not clean. This evidence of recent cheaters suggest that sprinting is now a drugged sport, even Charlie Francis said so. With the amount of blacks running the shorter sprints, obviously they will be running faster times.
Sprinters like Valery Borzov obliterate your so-called theory when he ran 10.07 on a non mondo track in the olympics slowing down in the prelims. He also ran 20.00. If wariner can run 43.45, by the way much harder than 10.00, then I think running under ten shouldnt be a problem; if whites were interested to pursue professional sports as much as blacks. Kostas Kenteris (I know he was probably roided but so was Michael Johnson so dont even go there) can run 19.85 and win every major championship he is in then whites can run 10.00. Shirvington ran 6.52 in the 60 meter and 10.03 into a headwind. Put 2 meters per second of wind behind that and that is a sub 10.
My point, there is absolutely no difference between the majority of whites (some are distance runners and therefore cannot be sprinters), and West African blacks (most are fast twitch not mixed with longer distance like whites). We are just interested in different sports. People thought whites couldnt box then the Klitschkos came along.
I know you will be stubborn to change your opinion after all the googling you have done to twist your “facts” into a wretched excuse for an article, but just try to pay attention.
You act like 10 seconds is a limit to the human genome. Let me tell you something. Do you know how much of a coincidence it would be that the fastest a white man can run ends in a number that happens to be two zeros (10.00)? Like the person who invented the second sat down and thought “oh, a white man can’t beat 10 so I’ll make it that.” Make the second a little longer and the fastest Woronin ever ran would be 9.99 and there wouldn’t be a debate. This mindless debate exists because of the coincidence that some guy happened to run 10.00. That is the ONLY fact you have. Some white guy happened to run 10.00.
Anybody can win an Olympic medal. And my bet is that there would be more whites winning anyway if we cared more because of a higher population of people whho are healthy.
There are a lot of things fucked up in this world. White people or any race for that matter don’t need people saying they cannot do something. The human genome is limitless no matter what the race.
And by the way. What matters is GENETIC, not RACIAL. So if two really fast white people breed then there you go, Olympic champion. So that alone disproves your theory.
Thanks for the diatribe Jake.
So here we go again, I do wish you’d read the other comments, it really would save both of us some time.
You cannot compare these events to the 100m, have you ever seen a shot putter sprint?
I’ve heard it all before Jake, and your argument doesn’t hold water, but don’t feel stupid, it’s a common argument, particularly with those from the US. About 95% of European sprinters are white, there is only really the UK and France that have black sprinters, most other European sprint teams are either mostly or all white.
Despite this, and despite the European population being over 700 million (excluding Russia), in 40+ years a white sprinter has not gone under 10s. This isn’t due to a lack of white sprinters, Europe is positively brimming with them, it is because it just doesn’t appear possible.
Here we have Standard Excuse #2: Black people are all cheats and it isn’t fair. There are just as many, if not more (see list), white sprint cheats as there are black, they just have lower profiles in the US. If all black sprinters are on steroids, then all white ones are too, they wouldn’t be able to compete at all otherwise.
He ran on a Tartan track, and there really isn’t that much difference between the two. You’re probably too young to remember but Borzov ran at the height of the Cold War, against the US sprinters; it is a fair bet that Borzov was more doped up than any other sprinter before or since. Yet with the full backing of a Super Power, he still didn’t break 10s.
I have already stated that Shirvington is something of an enigma and is the only person that actually has come close. He had a slight headwind (-0.10). Would a 2m/s wind have made any difference? Who knows? Allan Wells, who had a PB of 10.11 did run 10s flat once, but he had nearly a 7m/s wind behind him, yet he still didn’t actually break 10s!
You can create all the scenarios in your head that you want to, but at the end of the day the fact remains; in 40 years thousands of white sprinters have tried to break 10s; far, far more than black sprinters, yet all have failed.
It’s no coincidence. Perhaps it is you who should be paying attention, in school. The time isn’t important, but the distance. 100m, that means to run the distance in less than 10s the sprinter must attain an average speed of 10m/s for 100m. A feat that is apparently impossible for white sprinters.
If you want to be pedantic about it, that is the same as a white sprinter running 100 yards in 9.144s or less. A feat, which I believe, no one has even done.
But it is our genetic make up that determines our race. We get our genes from our parents and their parents etc; clearly the particular gene that dictates such speed has either been lost in white people, or was never there.
Many athletes marry other athletes, yet, at least as far as I know, no super-sprinter has been created from such a union.
LOL, you make no sense at all. Whenever white athletes like Kostas Kenteris take steroids they are scrutinized and ridiculed, but when blacks run fast like Bolt or Bailey nothing is suspicious. Out of the last 6 100 meter olympic champs, 3 have been proven to take steroids. Carl Lewis tested positive for three types of stimulants. That makes four cheaters.
These cheaters come from the same sprinting powerhouses like the USA, Jamaica, and other Carribean nations. These countries take steroids and European countries never do. When they do (Linford Christie) , whalah, a medal! You think Borzov was doped, lol. Have you ever seen him? Hahahaha. by the way the USSR almost never took steroids, the US and East Germany did. Now it looks like Jamaica has jumped on this bandwagon. Japan looks like it has as well to be honest. Greece is another one.
No matter how much you hate to admit it, whites were competitive in sprinting before the era of steroids, going head to head with black athletes. Jim Hines, Armin Hary, Bobby Morrow, Jesse Owens, and Valery Borzov are probably the fastest clean sprinters in history.
Look at a continent like Africa. Whites are less than 1% of its population, and less than 5% of Soth Africa. Yet still Morne Nagel (white man) has run the second fastest 60 meter on the continent.
And shot putters and high jumpers are just an example of how white people do possess fast twitch muscles, Im not saying that these people can run sub 10. im saying the presense of fast twitch muscles is there.
Most differences between races are cultural.
Oh really? This is a list of European sprinters that have failed drugs test in the past decade, all of them white:
Falk Balzer (German 110m hurdler), Gary Cadogan (British Hurdler), Dougie Walker (British Sprinter), Dean Capobianco (Australian Sprinter), Christophe Cheval (French Sprinter), Sébastien Denis (French Hurdler), Gábor Dobos (hungarian 100m runner), Anastasios Gousis (Greek Sprinter), Hristoforos Hoidis (another Greek sprinter – PB of 10.14), Pietro Mennea (PB 10.01, 19.72), Géza Pauer (Hungarian Sprinter), Dimítrios Régas (yet another Greek Sprinter), and Andrey Rudnitskiy (Russian Sprinter)…there are many, many more.
You may not know their names, but all of them were either national champions or top 3 for their country. It’s a fair bet that far more white sprinters take steroids than blacks. Pietro Mennea is proof that white sprinters have been taking steroids far longer than you realise.
If you believe that Borzov was clean, then you are crazy.
60m isn’t 100m. Most white sprinters compete much closer at 60m than they do at 100m. Nagel’s PB is 10.13s at 100m, the African record is 9.85s.
White did compete about 50 years ago, but they peaked. Few white sprinters ever make it past 10.20 and even fewer reach the dizzy heights of sub 10.10, so few in fact that it is possible to name them all.
Not true. Black people born in Northern Europe are still genetically the same as those born in sub-Saharan countries. Culture is irrelevant. Likewise if I lived in China for 60 years and went as native as I could, genetically I’d still be as white as the day I was born, and despite what Prince Philip thinks, I’d never get slanty eyes.
Dennis Mitchell
10.04 secs
Mitchell tested positive for testosterone, claiming the result was a result of drinking beer and having too much sex the night before. He was suspended for two years by the IAAF. Best 9.86
Desai Williams
10.11 secs
Williams, who is currently working with school kids, admitted to using steroids at the Dubin inquiry but never tested positive. Best: 10.16
Ben Johnson
9.79 secs
Johnson came back from his suspension to run a 10.16 in 1992 and qualified for the semis in Barcelona. He failed a second drug test in 1993 Best: 9.79
Calvin Smith
9.99 secs
Smith, who currently lives in Florida, has been adamant that he never used performance enhancing drugs throughout his career. Best: 9.93
Lindford Christie
9.97 secs
Christie tested positive for pseudoephedrine after the Seoul 200m race. He later tested positive to mandrolone in 1999 and was suspended for two years.
Best: 9.87
Carl Lewis
9.92 secs
It was revealed last year that though Lewis tested positive to minor amounts of stimulants two months before the event, he was allowed to compete. Best: 9.86
Ray Stewart
12.2 secs
Stewart secretly failed a drugs test the year before and pulled up injured in that race, has kept himself fit by playing football. Best: 9.96
Robson Da Silva
10.11 secs
Da Silva works with Brazil’s track and field authority. He was a bronze in the relay at the 1996 Games in Atlanta. Best: 10.11
Tim Montgomery, Maurice Greene, and Justin Gatlin can all be added to this lisst.
Guess where these guys are from for the most part? The American and Carribean nations. Linford Christie was from England.
The black list of positive tests is much longer and are much bigger names. Imagine if Matt Shirvington took them. He would have ran a 9.7 or 9.8. Usain Bolt went from 10.03 in 2007 to a 9.69 while slowing down in 2008. Shirvo had a better personal best two years younger than Bolt.
Yes. Steroids have a deep history with athletics starting with the first postive test of a gold medal in 1984. Black athletes are the big names being caught.
If whites were to use steroids (Kenteris), they get much more heat because it is harder for most to fathom that white people can be fast.
Actually, Linford Christie was born in Jamaica, he didn’t move to Britain until was seven. I am not sure what your argument is, but those are the nations that also have the most investment in sprinting.
No, you just hear about the top sprinters as they are black and most likely North American or from the Caribbean. Every year many white European sprinters are caught doping, you just don’t hear about them but many are big names in their respective countries. Dwain Chambers for instance wasn’t on your list, but he was a British Champion twice, Commonwealth Champion, European Indoor Champion and World Bronze Medallist. A big name in Europe but probably just off the radar in the US.
Pietro Mennea – Italian:
200m Olympic Gold Medal Winner – 1980
200m World Record Holder – 1979-1996
Fastest white man for 5 years – Would still be were it not for Woronin’s time.
200m PB – 19.72s
100m PB – 10.01s
Mennea has since admitted he took growth hormone’s through his career.
Dougie Walker – British:
200m European Champion – 1998
European Record Holder at 300m
British Champion 200m – 1998
200m PB – 20.35s
100m PB – 10.31s (10.01s windy – 2.9m/s)
One of Britain’s top 200m runners, failed a drugs test 1998.
Dean Capobianco – Australian:
200m World Championship Finalist – 1993
Australian 200m Champion 3 times – 1991, 1992, 1996
Australian 100m Champion 2 times – 1991, 1993
200m PB – 20.18s
100m PB – 10.25s
Banned for taking steroids in 1996.
Gábor Dobos – Hungarian:
Finalist World Championship 60m – 2003
200m PB – 20.67s
100m PB – 10.17s
60m PB – 6.54s
Top 100m runner for Hungary, banned for doping, 2000; banned for life 2006.
Hristoforos Hoidis – Greek:
U23 European Champion – 1999
Quarter Finalist World Championships – 1999
Olympic Games – 2004
100m PB – 10.14s (faster than Kenteris)
60m PB – 6.64s
3rd Fastest Greek 100m runner of all time, fourth fastest Balkan 100m runner of all time. Banned for doping – 2005
They may not be big names for you, but in their respective regions they are, and they were big scandals. As you can see top sprinters, all doping but all still way off the top black sprinters.
They do. If you look at the patterns above, most reach the national top, then realise that to compete they need to take something, then are banned. I don’t know why you seem to think that only black athletes cheat, maybe it is just because they are ones that are on TV and in the news?
Dwain Chambers said the same thing, so, does that prove or disprove that white sprinters are doping too?
As far as I know the first positive doping test was in 1972, a white swimmer. The first in Athletics was a Pole (white) in 1976. As far as I know, in the 1984 Olympics the only athletes found doping were white. Ben Johnson was the first non-white athlete caught doping in 1988.
Edit: By first postive test of a gold medal in 1984 I am referring to the athlete Carl Lewis. Who with two other teammates took three banned stimulants.
Charlie Francis believes that it is impossible to be a sprinter lately under ten seconds without taking steroids. I think he would know better than you.
And you can’t say Matt Shirvington is just an enigma. He ran 10.03 into a .1 m/s headwind at 19 years old. That is faster than Usain Bolt when Bolt was 21 years old. Shirvington WAS a sub 10 had he had wind behind him at all. You just can’t say it is impossible.
Also, how come white women are so fast? With the same RACE and GENETICS they hold the 60 meter world record. Now you will give me the same stupid excuse I gave you which is disinteresr.
Also, look at the women’s 200 meter records. They are all by Jamaica, the USA, and East Germany. Every one. That should give you an idea of the company the US and Jamaicans are in.
Also many white women have destroyed the 11 second barrier, running 10.77 for Irina Privolova and Lalova. Prinalova got a bronze in Barcelona.
In my opinion white athletes are better at the 60 meter dash, high jump, shot put, and 400 meter dash than they are at the 100 meter dash. But that does not mean they cannot run. If whites wanted to be and if tracck and field were cleaned up certainly some white athletes would win medals. The last 40 meters is not always the strong point of white athletes, but some can still do it. Christophe Lemaitre will probably break ten.
Matt Shirvington is an enigma, but he had a little help.
He was the product of a first class and very expensive sprinting programme in Australia, probably the best sprinting programme anywhere in the world whose primary beneficiaries were white athletes, yet still the 10s barrier wasn’t broken.
As far as I know, and I could be wrong, the funding for such an ambitious programme has either been cut or ended as it just wasn’t getting the desired results – they were getting good athletes but no top athletes. Shirvington’s run isn’t even in the top 500 best times, and he’s the 93rd fastest athlete ever. Even Patrick Johnson’s 9.93s were only 128th and 31st respectively.
Compare that to the British Sprint programme, which is done on a shoe string, but has the 14th fastest person – Linford Christie.
I doubt we’ll ever see the likes of Matt Shirvington again. As for the age, white sprinters seem to peak much earlier than black ones. Shirvington was 19 when he ran his best time. Borzov was 22, as was Nicolas Macrozonaris; Johan Rossouw was 23.
Compare that with Linford Christie, who ran his PB aged 33. Carl Lewis who ran his aged 30, Maurice Greene was 24, Donovan Bailey was 29, Bruny Surin was 32, Leroy Burrell was 27, and Frankie Fredericks who was 31.
Craig Pickering ran his best time aged 20, by my reckoning, and I could be wrong, he only has this year to improve on his time, otherwise chances are, he never will.
Are they? The top five fastest female sprinters – are black! The fastest white female, Irina Privalova has a PB of 10.77, which is 0.28s off the world record, Marian Woronin’s mark of 10s is 0.31s off the world record. If anything the women prove my point.
That certainly appears to be the case, but the problem is maintaining that top speed for 100m, which whites just don’t appear to be able to do.
I am probably considerably older than you and you have to understand that my scepticism comes from experience, you see, I have heard it all before. I hope he does, but I know he won’t.
You cannot say it is impossible. Unlikely, ye. But impossible, not even close. Most of the black gold medalists have tested postive for steroids. That has never been the case with a white man. maybe there is a genetic predisposition for blacks in the last 40 meters of the 100 meter, but 10 seconds and no hope of another medal is certainly not the limit.
And white women holdd the world record in the 60 meter dash in 6.92 seconds . Irina Privalova is arguable the fastest women in history having the sixth fastest 100m time (funny how you cut your list off at 5) and has too many gold medals to count. In the European Championship this year Fabio Cerutti and Emanuele Di gregorio came in 2nd and 3rd, respectively; behind drug cheat Dwain Chaimbers. The 60 meter dash is the best measure of top speed and acceleration because it is impossible to gofull speed longer than 2 seconds and accelerate for 4 or5. The 100 meter is about speed endurance, not speed or fast twitch muscles.
And by you logic black men cannot jump, because white men hold the best 9 out of the best 10 highest jumps in history. The only black man on that list (Sotomayor) tested positive for nandralone, an anabolic steroid. Whites have the highest jumper for his height in Stefan Holm of Sweden too, and the clean world record 2.42 meters with patrik Sjoberg. We both know that black people can jump well, but the Olympics suggest otherwise. Hence, the cultural aspect and the mental aspect.
I am not sure what your point is? Dougie Walker was a gold medalist, albeit at 200m, as was Pietro Mennea, Hristoforos Hoidis was a gold medallist at the U23 European Championships. Sure there hasn’t been a white Olympic or World Champion found to be using steroids at the 100 or 200 metres, but not because they don’t cheat, but because they can’t compete. There hasn’t been a white 100 champion, World or Olympic, at all, since Alan Wells, whether they are cheating or not.
Winning medals isn’t an indication of cheating or not cheating. The fact that white people can’t compete doesn’t mean that they are not taking steroids, it merely shows that they are not benefiting, or at least not benefiting as much, from doing it. The athletes that I have shown you, and which you have repeatedly ignored, show that white sprinters are cheating. It just isn’t working.
But again, the 60m is not the 100m. You keep stating facts about the 60m as if that proves your point, but it doesn’t. The 60m is shorter. It’s a different event and it is run indoors.
You are the one mentioning fast twitch muscles and genetic predisposition etc, as if trying to excuse the facts, and the facts are these; a white sprinter has never run 100m in under 10s. Many black sprinters have. Ergo, black sprinters can run under 10s, white sprinters cannot.
Do we ‘know’ that? I certainly don’t other than an expression and a movie I certainly don’t know that for certain. Besides we are again talking about a different event, incidentally the British second best ever high jumper was black and the British No.1 at the moment is…..black.
White sprinters may well be able to run, but white sprinters cannot run 100m in less than 10s. It is a physical impossibility. I don’t know why you cannot accept this, yet accept white dominance in other events, such as swimming, so readily.
Just as you say the number one British high jumper is black then I will say the fastest South African is white (Morne Nagel). The facts show that blacks are not competitive in the high jump. So why didn’t you make an article black men cant jump? I am the one defending all athletes from your stupid stereotyping. Black men can jump. White men can run. And not only the 60 meter and 400 meter but the 100 meter as well.
You can’t call running sub 10 a physical impossibility because Shirvington ran 10.03 into a headwind. With 2 m/s that is sub 10. Does he not count as white because he is an “enigma.”
You said a lot of money was spent to find and train a Shirvington. So by that logic if every country did that then you would find a white sub 10.
You admit in other threads that you are doubtful of steroids. White people ran 10.03 (Shirvo), 10.07 (Borzov, who by the way ran 10.14 for a bronze medal at 27 years old), 10.11 (Wells), 10.03 (Macrozonaris), all without the aid of steoids. If any of these gold medals and contenders took the steroids that Montgomery, Greene, Chaimbers, Ben Johnson, Kostas Kenteris, HGH is Menneas case but it was LEGAL then, and others then there would be a sub 10. With more wind for Christ’s sake was behind them they would have ran sub 10.
It is a fact many whites are not interested in sprinting. So what if there are many competing in Europe. That is because they are the majority. But these are not the BEST white sprinters due to the fact of their disinterest in a sport that has betrayed them.
You have skewed your facts. And I am sure you think I have skewed mine. But you are arguing that white men cant run the 100m, blacks cannot high jump, Asians cannot throw a javelin, blacks cannot swim, and all dumb people should be janitors. What are you, a Nazi?
Really, you know this as fact? You know that with a 2m/s wind behind him, Shirvington would have run sub 10, or would he have run the same? You call it a headwind, I say no wind – it was 0.1m/s. At best he would have shaved 0.01s off his time. It is only above 2m/s that a wind starts to make any real difference on the time, hence why that is the cut off point.
As I have said already, in 1979, one year before his PB of 10.11s, Wells ran a 10.00s time, but with a 6.8 m/s wind. So nearly 7 m/s wind yet he still didn’t break 10.00s. The wind isn’t as much of a performance boost as you seem to believe. Also Wells had a windy time of 10.02s that time he has a 5.9m/s wind.
I said it helped, I didn’t say it was the reason he was so fast. Shirvington is an enigma, he was lucky to be in Australia at that time, otherwise he’d have been just another 10.1 white sprinter. But no amount of investment or training can make up for physical impossibilities.
Europe has more than twice the population as the US (700 million), it also has 50 independent states, that means 50 sprint teams, 50 different athletics budgets, 50 coaching and development systems, 50 school systems etc, nearly all of which are made up entirely of white sprinters (Europe has a 98% white population). Australia has a population of just 20 million, 92% white, but a negligible black population, so they only had a small pool to work with, not that it made much difference. In more than 40 years no European has broken 10.00s, nor, in my mind ever come close. One Australian white, out of all that investment, work and coaching broke 10.1s.
Even if every European state invested as much as the Australians it wouldn’t make any difference. Just look at the Italians, who have a good sprint team and another good programme. Fabio Cerutti looked good indoor, but outdoor he is yet to break 10.1, his best being 10.13s. Emanuele Di Gregorio has a best of 10.24s, which he set a few days ago incidentally. Neither will be anywhere outdoors this year, Di Gregorio will never break 10.2s and Cerutti will never break 10.1s.
No doubt you’ll disagree but you’ll see. Just as with Christophe Lemaître, he may look impressive at 18, but history has proven time and time again, he won’t make 10.1s. If he breaks 10.1s before he is 24, then maybe I’ll reconsider, but he won’t.
No, all without being caught for steroids, that is not to say that they didn’t use them. Mennea used drugs throughout his whole career, but was never caught out. You can say the same about Usain Bolt, he ran 9.69s without performance enhancing drugs. But you couldn’t know for 100% certain either way.
No, you are assuming that. You seem to assume that whites aren’t taking steroids because they are not running as fast as blacks, who you are also assuming are all taking steroids. If that were true Kenteris would have been breaking records, in the end he wasn’t even the fastest white man, or even the fastest in his own country.
I doubt that a white sprinter can run below 10.1 without the aid of some performance enhancing drug. Personally, without performance enhancing drugs, I’d say that the fastest white sprinters can hope for is 10.2, like Armin Hary and those running before drugs. Sadly, I think black athletes can run about 10.00 without drugs, so even taking steroids etc out of the equation, white men still can’t run.
Now you really are clutching at straws. How are these, professional, sprinters who love the sport disinterested in it in your view? Because they aren’t running fast enough? That is offensive to all white sprinters in Europe, who, it has to be said, are carrying the torch for white sprinters the world over.
There are positives and negatives to every race. I didn’t say that Asians cannot throw the Javelin but when was the last time you saw a black athlete in the swimming pool at the Olympics? As far as I know it has only happened once. You’re implying that by voicing this obvious fact, I am somehow prejudice? Yet you think nothing of saying all blacks are cheats and whites are not because…they are white and therefore honest?
White men can run the 100m, but they will never run it as fast as the fastest black man. Sorry to shatter your illusions, but facts are facts.
Actually in Shirvo’s case a 2 m/s tailwind would effect his time by .15 seconds or a bit more.
You are a moron who has presented no facts. whites were beating black athletes before the advent of steroids. White people are in my experience stronger and better starters. Black people are good towards the end of their 100 meter.
I have never came across an article more stupid or biased , ever. Fabio cerutti has run 10.13 with a 6.61 60 meter, and this year he ran a 6.55. So he will break 10.1. Di gregorio has already run 10.2 two months before he should peak. I predict he runs 10.15 or better by the end of the year. Simone Collio also has a chance of running sub 10.1, but this year. By the way he is 30 years old. Not 23.
You think by getting the last word and by taking clips out of what I am saying and giving stereotypical, narrowminded rebuttals that you have somehow won.
White people will always continue to medal in sprints, as well as blacks. Despite the fact that the US and Carribean nations will contiue to cheat this will be the case.
I laugh at your dumb article and will continue to post so people reading this dont believe your pseudoscientific, racist, assumptions.
Really? So you’re saying that had Shirvington had a 7m/s tailwind, like Wells did once, he be going under Bolt’s record! A 2 m/s giving a .15 advantage is just plain silly, Wells didn’t even gain a .15 advantage even with a 7m/s tailwind!
Once again you are implying that blacks started cheating and that is why whites cannot compete, because they are honest! The fact is, it was the switch to electronic timing that left whites behind, not steroids.
As for facts, they speak for themselves. Despite many, many white sprinters taking performance enhancing drugs, none have broken 10s. Clearly taking steroids isn’t the secret to breaking the 10s barrier.
We’ll see. If he does, feel free to come back and gloat as much as you want.
Again, we’ll see but you seem to be basing your predictions on wishes, rather than cold hard facts. At 29 it is a miracle that he is running PBs at all, but as for 10.15, no chance.
His PB up to last year was 10.45, so I’d say in desperation he may have turned to additional help, but even that won’t help him break 10.2.
Has a chance? He hasn’t run under 10.2 for three years, in fact as far as I know, he’s only run under 10.2 once. But aged 30, you’re predicting a sub 10.1? No chance, not even if he’s drinking what Di Gregorio is having. Collio won’t see a sub 10.2 time again.
Well I fart in your general direction but I do invite you to come back, any time a white man breaks the 10s barrier – legally – and ridicule me as much as you wish to.
As for assumptions, I think after 40+ years of waiting for something, it is more than a casual assumption that it is never going to happen.
Son, I won before you even read this article, chances are before, you were even born. I will still have won when I have been long in the ground and you’re in an old folks home, sat on a commode, cheering on the next great white hope on the TV.
Ok Charlie. Since you claim to be the expert on sprinting, what is your background. Have you ever competed? Have you coached? What gives you the right to tell me or anyother white sprinter or fan, that no elite white sprinter will break 10 seconds.
Three whites have gone sub 20 in the 20o meters. More will follow. 10 seconds is but a number. A place in time that will be smashed through. Nothing can stop any sprinter with the right genetics. Yes whites can have the sprinting genes as well. You are so biased against white sprinters. No one can predict the future! Not even you Charlie. I will go out on a limb here. The sub 10 happens by Berlin at the World Championships at the latest.
Too many people are knocking on the door. Just like Sebastian Bayer might just soon hold the outdoor world record in the long jump. No imaginary force of his disease (as you say) of being white will stop him. The right conditions with the right training can equal success for any athlete.
The mental aspect is the only disadvantage. It is drilled into little kids heads of what they can and can’t do. This is starting to change. White kids today have the confidence and swagger again. This stupid blog will become false advertising very soon. Mark my words! I will await your reply as to why I’m pretty fly for a white guy. Sub 10 coming to a track near you soon!
Apart from being none of your business it is irrelevant. A five year old knows that a white sprinter cannot run under 10s. You don’t have to be an expert in any particular field to know this.
I’m sorry to shatter your illusions Craig, but it is true. You may wish it wasn’t, but it is.
But the 200m isn’t the 100m, and two of those were taking performance enhancers, and the other just shaved it with almost the maximum tailwind with 19.98s. I have no doubt however that a white 200m runner could compete, but he’d never get anywhere near 19.3s.
Not true, with a large enough amount of data, a decent handle on the variables it is possible to predict the outcome of events. 40 years of data is more than enough to predict that a white sub-10 will never happen.
If it does, I will eat my hat. In fact I’ll got out on a limb; there will be no whites in the final.
The sad thing is, you don’t realise but people have been saying the same thing for years. How old are you? Younger than 30 I’d say. You think that the great white sprinter is around the corner. What you fail to realise is that he’s been and gone several times, you just didn’t notice.
Really? I could be wrong but none of them have ever gone under 10.1s, let alone 10s.
You see, that is the problem with your view, you see 10.2 and 10.1 as a failure. Any white sprinter that can run under 10.1 has done phenomenally well. They just don’t get the recognition they should for that. 10.1 is the white 10s barrier.
I don’t see that at all, on the contrary. I see young white sprinters really believing that they can compete. Which is a little sad.
That said, I will still be cheering Craig Pickering on all the way this season and with any luck he’ll break 10.1, which is all anyone can really ask of him.
I wish it were true, but I am not blinded by faith. I am fairly certain it will never happen. Perhaps when you get to my age you will be too.
I have read enough fom Craig and Jake to realize that Charlie has no idea what he is talking about.
White have run sub 20. Sub 44. They have already gotten 10.00 (9.997) and 10.03 into a headwind (equates to 9.93 roughly with 2 meters per second). Plenty have been good past 23 y.o. Borzov, Collio, and Wells are a few. The women have the 60 meter record and Morne Nagel has run 6.48.
Incidentally, you do know that Shirvo has run with almost a 2m/s tailwind a couple of times that I know of? His times were:
10.26 (1.7m/s)
10.28s (1.8m/s)
10.11 (1.9m/s)
So clearly, breaking the 10s barrier isn’t dependent on a good tailwind.
Also do you know how many of the top 20 athletes ran there sub-10s with a tailwind of 2m/s? None.
Walter Dix ran his into a headwind of 0.0m/s, so technically his PB is 9.75s, he just needs to run that race again with a 2m/s tailwind instead of a headwind to prove it.
So I want to hear it from you straight, Charlie. The same logic you use means black men can’t jump. So you think this is true too?
Thanks for the comment Jake..er I mean Greg, or was it Jake?
Anyway back to your points.
Sure they have, Woronin’s only sub-10.1 time, happened at home!
Equates? You mean you’re guessing right? It doesn’t equate to anything otherwise Wells would have run 9.59s when he has that 7 m/s tailwind. As for a 0.1m/s wind being classed as a headwind, well, you’re just living in the land of make believe now Jake.
I didn’t that they were not still decent runners after 23, I said that they ran their best times before 23, i.e. they peaked. Collio and Wells are not on the top white sprinters list. But the fastest white sprinters all seem to have peaked in their earlier 20s, compared to the fastest black sprinters he peaked in their late 20s-early 30s.
The 60m is not the 100m. Nagel has a top 100m time of 10.13s (set when he was 25), he’s now 31 and hasn’t run for two years. To be fair though his last run (10.38s) did have a headwind of 0.0m/s so technically, at least according to your calculations, he ran 10.23s, his best for three years!
No.4 on the 50m all time list is one Manfred Kokot, an East German athlete with a time of 5.61s, proving that whites can compete over that distance and also that steroids probably also help at that distance. Your hero Nagel is also on that list, 13th.
At 60m the first white man appears at 19th on the list, your pal Nagel. There are no whites in the top 10 and only Nagel makes the top 20.
At 100m…well, you see where I am going with this?
Charlie is an ignorant want to be athlete that got beat up by bullys in school. Yeah that is childish to say that but the truth hurts. Your lack of education(common sense to start with) shows your in ability to have a qualified hypothesis that stands up.
They used to say, no will will ever run a 4 minute mile. They also thought no one could ever go sub 10. Now another idiot thinks that whites are just too damn slow. I don’t here that about latins or mexicans or asians or even native americans. Only whites. Wake up Charlie. Your a dumb ass. White along with blacks with or without steroids are the worlds greatest athletes. HELLO? Do you understand. You disgrace your race! Sorry to say that but this blog will end soon. Blacks are great athletes but so are whites. You will never see Charlie say a black can’t beat Jonathan Edwards in the triple jump for the world record. It’s not possible becaus they are black. Bull shit just like a white and many will go sub 10! So will some Asians to shut your dumb ass up!
So now you are resorting to playground insults? I see.
My ‘hypothesis’ is plain common sense. In 1968 Jim Hines broke the 10s barrier. 41 years later and after 68 men have broken the same barrier, not one single one of them has been white, nor has a white person come close.
Moreover, of the 68 men to break the 10s barrier, 67 of them have been black, that’s every last man jack of them bar one. No-one of Asian, White, Native American or any other race has ever done it. That exception was one Patrick Johnson, of Aboriginal descent. He only broke it once, and never broke sub 10.1 again. His best the year before, and the year after his sub-10 was 10.2+s.
I am not saying anything exceptional, just the facts. Of the millions of white athletes that have tried, all have failed. It is your position that is childish, you could still be waiting in a 100 years for a white sprinter to break 10s, and still claiming that it is just around the corner. Just when, in your mind, could it be conclusively proven to be impossible? 100 years, 200? A thousands years? Never, because you believe?
I never said that. And you’re getting confused, people came close even before Roger Bannister ran sub 4 minutes. Also when it was broken, two men ran under 4 minutes.
So you’re admitting defeat then? They are too slow. Until a white does break 10s, you’ll always be making a baseless argument.
Asian athletes, most notably the Japanese are making great strides, it is probably only a matter of time before a Japanese athlete breaks 10s. As for the rest, you’re missing the important point again, only black athletes, and I believe the official term is: those of sub-Saharan African descent, have ever broken 10s. So yes, that pretty much does include everyone else.
No-one is disputing that, just not at 100m.
Well I certainly won’t be cheering him on if he does (unless he’s British), Edwards’ was a fine record and one of the few times that a Briton has broken a world record recently. But I don’t think that we have reached the peak of development at the triple jump yet, white or black; like we have in the 100m with white athletes.
Good luck with that, but don’t hold your breath.
Ya if you check my IP address then you’ll know I am not Jake.
And why are you going to Allan Wells’s 10.00w to determine the effect of wind, because you don’t know how fast he really ran that race. If you go to any online calculator you will see that 2 m/s makes more than .1 difference in the 100 meters. Shirvo’s 10.03 into a headwind(.1 m/s) is the fastest an an Asian or White has ever run. Koji Ito’s and Marian Woronin aren’t that good at 10.00 because they both had over 1.9 m/s hel. They would have been around 10.10.
Quite right, my mistake. Jake was posting from Acton Massachusetts whereas you’re posting from miles away, 8 to be exact, in Sudbury Massachusetts! What are the chances eh? Staying the weekend at your Nan’s?
Any online calculator, well that settles it then. You found the answer on the internet, and as the internet is quite strict and anyone posting anything on their website about such a thing would need at least a PhD in physics, you must be right.
Anyway Shirvo is something we do agree on, an incredible time and for me that fastest ever run by a white man but he just doesn’t get the recognition that he deserves.
Ito’s times are valid. He also ran a 10.06 a year after running his 10.0s, and with no real tailwind (0.4m/s)
Ok, can you not accuse me of eing someone else please and talk civilized.
Look. About 2 m/s on Shirvo’s run would equal a 1.16 difference. Because he had .1 m/s, Jake was right in saying that the difference would be .15 seconds. Shirvo’s time actually equals a 9.88 second 100 meter! Here is the link:
http://www.cs.uml.edu/~phoffman/wind.html
Yeah, sure. What are the chances of two people, who use the same expressions and grammatical errors, making the same points and backing each other up, and who live just 8 miles from each other, finding the same blog, within days of each other and commenting on precisely the same article?
Pretty, pretty slim I’d say.
Anyway Jake/Greg if those figures are true, all those white sprinters that can’t make a sub-10.10 would break 10.0 with a 2m/s tailwind, so how come if hasn’t happened?
Firstly because those figures were compiled in the 1930s, have you seen a sprinter from back then, compared to now? Just look at Arthur Jonas a German sprinter from the 1930s, and compare him to Matt Shirvington.
Sprinter then look more like the 800m runner of today.
I’m glad to know that some people in Massachusetts know what’s up.
You know you’re talking to yourself don’t you?
The reason Charlie gets under peoples skin is because he claims that a sub 10 will never happen from a non black athlete. He has no idea how stupid a statement that is. Liu of China held the world record in the 110 hurdles just a couple of years ago. That was not possible either but somehow it happened.
Just like multiple sub 10’s will happen by different ethicities. The possibility of it not happening is next to nothing. It’s a numbers game. They said Michael Johnsons world record in the 200 would never be broken for 50 years. I heard that over and over. It was but a number and I knew eventually it would be broken.
There is no magical barrier or wall to stop the white athlete. The only way it won’t happen is if every white sprinter currently and in the future just gave up track. That is not going to happen Charlie even though that might be your wish. This summer, it will happen. Hold me to that statement. Where there is a dream and the desire to fullfill the dream, dreams become reality. You have to dream it, then envision it, and then go acheive it. 2009 will be the year. Mark it on your calender Charlie and maybe you can buy me dinner sometime and admit how wrong you were.
People have been saying precisely that since the 1960s, ‘the flood gates are open’ etc etc etc
Do you know how stupid you sound to someone who was there? The only explanation for 40+ years of trying is that it is impossible. You’re young and think that you know everything and that everything that you do is new, well it isn’t. The white British 100m record has stood for 29 years, the white world record for 25 years. Whites have peaked.
Johnson’s stood for twelve, and it did look near impossible, but people got closer and closer. Apart from Shirvo, whites have got further and the further away.
Incidentally what is the white US record?
Craig, if it happens this summer I will buy you a house.
First of all you need to change the title to white men can’t run the 100 meter, because that is the evidence you are giving. White men are barely on the top 100 all time list for the 100 meter. How come white women is at number 6 (Irina Privalova and Ivet Lalova), have the record in the 50 meter, 60 meter, and 400 meter, and won a gold medal in the 100 meter in 2004. We have exactly the same genes. The difference between a clean black (no Griffith-Joyner or Marion Jones) and a white women ) is actually .04 seconds. Why is there such a desparity, Charlie, between white men and women?
Secondly, I want to hear what you have to say about black men and jumping, because it will tell me just how close-minded you are. I want to hear you say it. Because no black man has ever broken the 2.40 meter “barrier” clean and several white men have, is it true that black men can’t jump?
Jake/Greg,
Wouldn’t really fit as the article is about the Fastest ever white men.
The article is clearly about the fastest white men, I am not as interested in women’s sprinting, hence no mention of them.
What I do know is this, women are not as fast as men, not even the top sprinters.
Er, no we don’t. I am not sure whether you know this but women do not have penises, and they have breasts which produce milk. Women are more genetically geared toward giving birth, I am no geneticist but presumably this also means that their bodies work differently when it comes to things like sprinting.
Women will never be able to run as fast as men, it just isn’t physically possible. Even the the fastest woman, doped up, Flo Jo, on her best day, would not have beaten even a mediocre white sprinter. Presumably this is because women’s bodies are made different, with different priorities, hence why women seem to be able to stay top sprinters for longer. Merlene Ottey for instance was sprinting at the top well into her late 30s. Irina Privalova last year ran her best time in 9 years, even though she’s now 40. Ottey is still competing, and a national champion aged 49. Can you imagine a man still running at those ages?
Clearly there are major difference in sprinting between men and women.
Who knows, it may even be that the fast sprint gene is only evident if black males, or only males altogether.
No, Dalton Grant, British high jumper and No.2 on the British all time list jumped 2.37, so clearly 2.40 is not out of reach for black men.
As I mentioned before, I am just not that into high jump either, besides, you cannot compare the high jump to the 100m.
Wait. You just said that a man that jumped 2.37 is not far from 2.40 meters. But you also said that 10.03 is not acheivable by a white man. Now I see whatt it is. You are obviously racist. i tried not to come to that conclusion but that seems like it is the case. You refuse to give the same logic you used to say white men can’t run to say that blacks cannot jump.
And obviously I mean that white women are beter RELATIVELY than white men. The best reason you came up with to this obvious disparity is that the gene for sprinting fast is different for black females than for white females. Wow, you are very well-equipped to be writing an article. 10.77 is extremely fast. Irina Privalova could burn your ass in 1992, and she could burn your ass now. And she can have kids.
My point is things don’t add up. there are cultural and economic pieces of the puzzle you just cannot find. According to your logic black men can’t jump. Anybody who has ever seen an NBA basketball game would argue with you on that.
If a white man can be fourth and tenth on the all-time 50 meter list (Kokot and Nagel), and eighth and sixteenth on the all-time 200 meter list (Mennea and Kenteris), then why shouldn’t they have success at the 100 meter?
There is never any limit to human potential. Whites did not “maxed out” 40 years ago. Morne Nagel, Matt Shirvington, and Jeremy Wariner are some of the fastest yet.
You reject the RELATIVE athleticism of women, the fact that black men can jump high (according to your logic), and that white people can be competitive 100 meter sprinters. Anybody who disagrees with any of those statements should disregard your article.
That’s right Jake/Greg, you’re the one saying that all blacks take drugs and that is the reason that they run faster than the honest whites, but I am the racist?
Because it is your twisted logic, your biased argument and you are wrong.
Sotomayors 2.45m jump still stands, he’s black. Aside from that rather obvious flaw in your argument we also have Charles Austin, who jumped 2.40 in 1991 and who is number 6 on the all time list. That means there is just 2cm between the top white and the next black jumper, but 3cm between Sotomayer and the top white jumper. Hollis Conway, again black, jumped 2.39 in 1989 and is number 9 of all time jumpers.
Your argument is pointless, baseless and quite frankly, stupid.
This debate isn’t even really about the ten second barrier, but about the gulf between white and black athletes. Even if, by some miracle, a white sprinter ran 9.99s tomorrow, they’d still be nearly half a second behind the WR. White sprinters just cannot compete with black sprinters. It really is that simple. You’ve offered no evidence that a white sprinter could ever run 9.69s, because there isn’t any.
No, that isn’t my ‘explanation’ your argument is void, men and women are different. You cannot say that men must be able to do it because women can, that is just plain silly. Men cannot give birth or breast feed, but women can.
Women sprinters can keep running right into their late 40s, male sprinters cannot, clearly there are big differences between men and women sprinters on a genetic level, as well as between the races.
I am afraid it is staring you right in the face, white men cannot run as fast as black men, it is that simple. How else do you explain the disparity between white and black sprinters from the same country and even from the same cities, schools and colleges? The only difference is race.
No, that is your warped logic. I didn’t mention the high jump at all.
You discount Flo-Jo one and Marion Jones, presumably because they don’t fit your argument and because they are black, but talk about Mennea and Kenteris, both also cheats as if they are Bona Fide. Some would view that as racist.
The facts speak for themselves, the 50m, 60m and 200m are different events, but even so you cannot say that whites men compete evenly with blacks in any of the short sprints. The records and the medals all go to black athletes.
Sure, why not go outside then and see if you can jump to the moon.
Wariner runs 400m, not 100m. Whites compete much better over the longer distances.
Shirvington granted, but Nagel is nothing special, his PB is 10.13, Alan Wells was running faster than that 29 years ago and he’s 31, so he’ll never break 10.1s.
The problem is Jake/Greg, you are fighting a losing battle that you refuse to acknowledge. I have cold hard facts on my side and 40 years of them at that. You have wishes and make believe. It’s touching, it really is, but telling me something is possible simply because you believe it, does not make it so.
You can offer up your half baked theories until the cows come home, but when they do, there still won’t be a sub-10 white 100m runner, even if you have your fingers and toes crossed till then. I admire your faith, I really do, but that is all it is, faith, i.e. hopes and aspirations.
At the end of the day, like I have said before; I hope I am wrong, but just like my hoping that Adriana Lima will pop round for a shag, I know that it is a vain hope.
Technically Sotomayor is Mulatto and could conceivably have inherited his genetics from a Spanish relative of his. I do agree about if a white sprinter does go sub 10 he will need to run consistent near flat tens. Before he gets to a 9.9X. Also if PED’s take a quantum leap sub ten will be done by all first world nations. It might be around the corner with genetic engineering.
Kenteris and Mennea never tested postive for steroids. Pietro mennea took HGH when it was LEGAL. This was when the IAFF condoned its use. HGH then was the modern equivalent of creatine today. Everyone obviously took it because it was legal. Odd your 40 years of athletic experience didn’t remember that.
Actually. You didn’t even know that Mennea ran several sub 20s not at altitude, although altitude does not make much of a difference. Michael johnson has run at altitude and it wasn’t even his best time.
Yes, blacks are taking steroids more than whites. Not because whites are more honest but because blacks compete for the US, JAMAICA, and other CARRIBEAN natiions. You don’t think Bolt is clean. That is odd. He ran 10.03 in 2007 and 9.69 in 2008. Not to mention do the Jamaican born names Ben Johnson and Linford Christie ring a bell? What about Tim Montgomery, Justin Gatlin, Linford Christie, Dwain Chaimbers (UK), and Carl Lewis (stimulants)?
It is a perfectly apt argument to give 50 meter and 200 meter splits. You say “they are not the 100,” but we both know no white has happened to run faster than 10.00. Shirvo ran 10.03. With a converter that is easily a sub 10, maybe a 9.88 according tto a specialist scientist; which you are not by the way. If whites can do well in shorter and longer sprints than the 100 meter than it is only logical they can do well in that too. You say yourself that modern sprinting is probably steroid aided, as does Tobias Unger, Charlie Francis, Dwain Chaimbers, Allan Wells, and more. Before this era of cheating that has peaked in the 90s and stayed at that plateau up until now and beyond, whites won medals. They challeneged the ten second barrier more often. With more people challenging it like back then the chances of a white breaking it would go up.
Your limited knowledge of track and years of experience are not wisdom. It is prejudice.
Not true, the IOC and IAAF were powerless to prevent athletes using HGH as they couldn’t test for it, that is not the same as condoning.
Using a substance that gives you an advantage (and he knew it did, or else why would he take it?), and that cannot be detected, may not strictly be against the rules, but it still unsporting and cheating.
No, not obviously as that is a sad testament to the modern mentality and the state of the sport. You may think in terms of any advantage is legal that is not illegal but that isn’t how athletes thought back then, by and large. Taking a magic supplement was cheating pure and simple.
If I told you I could give you a supplement that was not banned that no one else knows about and that would give you an advantage over your competitors would you take it?
If so, do not judge Dwain Chambers, Marion Jones and Tim Montgomery, as that was precisely what they were told. THG was not explicitly banned, and there was no test for it even if it was.
As for Kenteris, he is banned due to a doping violation; he may not of tested positive, but the only reason you avoid tests is because you know you’ll be found positive.
I knew he had run sub 20, but always presumed that they were at the same Olympics, other than his run at Barletta. To be honest, I took the commenter’s word for it, I still do not actually know that Mennea ran another a sub-20 other than those in Mexico and his 19.96s in Barletta.
Also whilst I am being honest, I think that most people in athletics at the time thought that Mennea was cheating, but getting away with it. Not much changes eh?
Now you are talking rubbish again. Even that article you linked to states that altitude plays a huge difference, 0.2 in Mexico City, If it doesn’t make a difference, why is it then that IAAF does not accept times run at over 2000m? Mexico City is at 2200m. Have you ever run at altitude?
How many times are we going to have the same arguments? More white sprinters have failed drugs test than black ones, that is unequivocal. Those sprinters you mention are just more prominent in your mind, so it seems that more blacks cheat. Also they are not at the top because of drugs, they are at the top because they are black; even on drugs white athletes cannot compete.
No, a sub-10 is when an athlete runs under 10s, all the rest is wishful thinking. That is athletics; how many athletes do you imagine think ‘if only I had the perfect race I could run XXXX’? Most of them, but athletics is like that, you are not guaranteed a perfect race. You can pull out all the statistics, racist propaganda and half baked theories ‘proving’ that whites can run under 10s, but they still haven’t and never will.
No, it does not. White are barely able to compete in the other sprints, and they cannot compete in the perfect sprint. Again trying to extrapolate half decent performances in the 50m to apply to 100m doesn’t work. Nor does your ridiculous position that in 40 years and millions of athletes, we just haven’t found the right ‘one’ yet, but black athletes have managed to find 67, from a far smaller pool.
They very rarely did, yes, you can name Wells, but Wells won because the black US athletes were not there. Before that it was Borzov, eight years earlier. There hasn’t been a white in an Olympic final since 1980. I can’t be sure but I don’t think that there has been a white in a World Championship 100m final since about then either.
No, they did not. Forgetting Woronin’s dubious time, Mennea and the others at altitude, that just leaves Shirvington and Borzov.
You knew nothing about the high jump, but continously used it as an example of your argument.
Your blind faith shows a lack of wisdom, not to mention twisted facts to fit your own aspirations. Take Shirvington out of the equation and no white athlete has even come close in more than 40 years. So even if, and I don’t believe it could happen, we’d have a white athlete break 10s once every 50 years or so!
Let’s look at it this way. In the days before there were steroids, whites and blacks both won medals and set world records. Then comes the performance enhancing drugs and all of a sudden some of these black sprinters turn into superman. I know there are white sprinters that have been busted too but the last three world record holders from the US were all on the juice. Maurice Greene, Tim Montgomery and Justin Gatlin.
Then if you go back and look at all of the big names that have been using it will make you scratch your head. Hell even Tyson Gay was an average high school sprinter. Now he runs 9.70 times. How is that possible? All I’m saying is that too many top coaches, trainers and sprinters will tell you that the cheating in track is as bad as the use in Baseball. It is a dirty secret. Jason Gardner did it the right way. Get rid of the cheaters and level the playing field.
Even Charlie Francis has admitted on occasion that 7 of the 8 sprinters in the 1988 Olympic Final were on peds for sure. He was 100% and he said he wouldn’t doubt if the 8th guy was as well. Countrys and governments/federations have covered for the athletes for years.
The sub 10 shall go down this summer and it will be done by a clean athlete representing GBR with pride. WADA needs to catch the cheats so the natural athletes can get on the medal stands again.
One last thing. For anyone to think that it is possible to run a 9.69 while coasting the final 10 meters clean, they are dreaming. He could have turned around and walked backwards and still have won. What is happening to the sport I love. There is no way that one guy is ever that far ahead of the worlds top sprinters. The last guy to win that easy was Ben Johnson. Where there is smoke, there is fire.
See above, you might think they did, but they didn’t.
It started in the 60s when blacks got equal rights in the US and then had access to the same equipment and coaching as whites, who knows how many good blacks were excluded due to racism before then. Whites did well, because there just weren’t that many blacks competing on equal terms. After that whites faded away.
Is that what really annoys you? That blacks perform better on steroids than whites? Or that even with the steroids whites still cannot compete? You seem to think that blacks are only faster because of steroids, I am tired of saying it, but that is not the case, blacks are faster because they are faster. Steroids are a moot point, as everyone is on them! Like geographical location and training, steroids can be ruled out as a factor.
Agreed, cheating should be an automatic ban for life. But even if the sport were cleaned up, blacks would still be running faster, that is my point.
I hope it does, but I know it won’t. Pickering isn’t the only white sprinter competing, there are faster Italians. I’d be happy with a sub 10.1s because frankly that is more than anyone could ask.
Agreed, for too long they have let big names get away with it because they do not want to tarnish the sport.
Agreed. It makes me wonder whether the sport is becoming not the fastest man, but the fastest drug development team behind the man. All people ask now when they see someone like Bolt, what is he on and why aren’t other athletes taking it.
I know this thread is old, but having just seen it, this made me laugh:
“I’d be happy with a sub 10.1s because frankly that is more than anyone could ask.”
2009 so far:
– Lemaitre 10.04 (+0.2)
– Collio 10.06 (+1.2)
– Guliyev 10.08 (+1.3)
Hope you’re happy 🙂 Lemaitre and Guliyev are both skinny 19 year olds too – I doubt they have reached full potential.
A white sub 10 will happen eventually. Technically it already has, Woronin’s 10.00 was actually 9.992 rounded up. Now actually winning medals is another matter..
Thanks for the comment Steve. I think that I was talking more about Pickering than anyone else, and honestly judging by his performances so far this year, I think that a 10.1s isn’t very likely.
His best time of 10.23s this year just isn’t good enough, and he’s had plenty of opportunities. Also his 10.46s time at Crystal Palace was terrible, sure there was a headwind. But he’s also run with a +3.0 wind the week before and still only managed a time of 10.21s.
As for Collio, well frankly he stinks. Aged 27 he was a 10.2s man at best, now, aged 29, he runs a new PB and managed 10.06s? Things like that tend to make me a little sceptical, as does this very good Italian sprint team who all seem to be getting similar times.
I will be watching LeMaitre and Guliyev in Berlin and hoping for a sub 10s, but I know that it won’t happen, white men cannot run sub 10. As for Woronin, he was a sub 10.2s man at best, I think his second best time was 10.13s but out of the blue, on his home track, with the maximum allowed wind, he runs 10.00, but never went sub 10.1 before or since? That sounds like the wind gauge got stuck to me. The picture at the top of this page is taken just after the race, and as you can see from his face, he’s as surprised as anyone!
Besides as you say, they’ll be lucky to make the final, or even semi final.
“Man cannot run under 4 minutes for the mile. I know it can’t happen because it hasn’t happened yet.”
Do athletes of west-african descent (completely) dominate the top lists? Well, yes.
But if (and counterfactuals of varying degrees are relevant here) Shirvington had run with 1.0mps behind him, he’d obviously have been under 10. Same with Lemaitre the other day.
Now, do we have reason to induce that a white man probably won’t be breaking the WR this year? Of course.
But pretending there is some concrete barrier between 10.03 and 9.99 is to be intentionally dense.
Shirvo’s 10.03 is intrinsically faster than, say, a 9.98 with a 1.9mps tailwind.
Lemaitre’s 10.04 is in the low 9.9s with a +1.x mps tail according to some charts, 9.8x with a +2.0 by some charts. Etc.
It’s just a silly argument in the first place.
The top sprinters this year are of west-african descent. That will probably be true next year, and the year after, etc.
But that’s not to say there is something magical about about 10.00 or something in people of a diverse set of backgrounds that we collectively call “white” that make reaching that time impossible but 10.01 possible —–
indeed, what could that be? Does Lemaitre have 10.04-fast-twitch-fibers but not 9.99-fast-twitch-fibers? It doesn’t work like that.
You’re saying more than you need to about the issue.
A white Brit or Frenchman running a 9.99 would be relatively more unlikely than a black Jamaican doing the same thing —– but anyone doing so is a very rare athlete in the first place.
You need a combination of physical traits, as well as a good support staff, psychological makeup, ability to train hard and not get injured, etc. It is not a reality for most sprinters.
If this combination is much more unlikely for someone of European ancestry, fine – but saying CANNOT is just being silly.
But here you are confusing the issue, no one had run under 4 minutes for the mile before Bannister, white or black.
10.00s has been regularly breached for the past 40 years, but only by people of a certain ethnic origin. I think that it is more than a case of black athletes being more likely to break it, after all, far, far, far more white athletes have tried than blacks. So statistically speaking, at least one of them should have made it in the past 40+ years, surely? Precisely how unlikely does something have to be before it is deemed impossible?
If I had a pound for every time someone made that argument. But why is it that white athletes need a +2.0m/s wind, the right shorts, steroids (another often used argument) and a downhill track?
Black athletes break 10.00s with negative winds, whites it seems are just waiting for the right conditions and presumably planetary alignment before reaching a 40 year old milestone.
What’s dense is people making ridiculous arguments (and you just have to look at the comments on here) to prove that it is possible, using bizarre extrapolations to prove their point. At the end of the day I am right and no amount of jumped to conclusions, unscientific data, discussions about Armin Hary running today nor optimism can prove me wrong, because I am not wrong.
Until a white man has broken 10.00s it is all just hope.
I agree stylee Charlie is being intenitonally dense. I don’t know why I argue with him about a magical barrier that will probably be broken in the next couple of weeks anyway.
Because you are too young to remember people talking about precisely the same thing, and making the same predictions, 40 years ago when Jim Hines ran under 10.00s.
It is good to see that you have such faith and optimism, but that is all it is. Chances are, this year, like the previous 40, will be a year in which no white athlete will break 10.00s.
The sad thing about your optimism is that, should a miracle happen and a white man break 10s, you will then believe that white athletes can compete with black athletes! Even though it will have taken 41 years of looking for the right athlete, with the right wind, right track and right kind of shorts, to reach a 40 year old target – once!
What you are thinking about LeMatire is precisely the same thing that was said about Borzov, Wells, Woronin and every other white athlete since. ‘It’s just a matter of time’ is what people have been saying for 40 years.
I’m not sure if you’re talking to Jake or I when you say “you will then believe that white athletes can compete with black athletes!”.
If it’s me, please note that I say nothing of the sort.
Can some white sprinters compete with some black sprinters? Well, duh.
Lemaitre is faster than, what, 99% of USA collegiate sprinters? He’s faster than everyone else in France (currently – though Pognon has a better PR)
Sure, but this doesn’t mean he can compete with the top 10-15 sprinters in the world.
Similarly, just because some of the top sprinters (arbitrarily, let’s take the #3-10 in the world right now) in the world are faster than 99.999999% of the people in history doesn’t mean they can *truly* compete with Bolt.
This is not because Bolt possesses some magic gene that allows him to go under 9.7 that no one else does – it’s just that he is an extremely rare specimen among extremely rare specimens. The chances of someone being born with someone with his combination of lever length, neuromuscular setup, fast-twitch fiber ratio, etc. etc. etc. is the equivalent of someone winning the Powerball lottery thrice or somethnig ridiculous like that.
The fact that he is of WA heritage probably makes that much *more likely* but it is not a determinate factor.
Lemaitre has run faster than Aikines-Aryeetey – is this because the former has some mystical genetic setup that puts him under 10.10 that the latter doesn’t? No, Lemaitre simply was born with a combination of physical and mental traits that, right now, appear to give him a better chance of running sub10 than A-A., even though the latter might, all other things being equal, have had better odds of being born with.
One big reason this appears to be a big deal is that 10.00 is a nice round number.
Same with 4:00 for a mile.
If (brace yourself – more conterfactuals) we had a different measurement system for time – so that 10.00 seconds in our time was 44.62345 in the hypothetical system, I honestly can’t imagine anyone saying that there was truly some physical impossibility to running 44.62344 for whites.
My point with the sub4 minute mile was not whatever you’re construing it as (and I’m not even sure what that is).
It’s simply faulty induction to go from “haven’t yet” to “wont” or, worse yet “can’t.”
What did Bertrand Russell say about the turkey who got a bucket of grain every morning prior to Christmas…and was thus sure he’d get one that morning, and not an axe?
And I’m tired of typing about this and I’m sure my boss will catch me BUT I will say
I will not think it’s a particularly big deal when lemaitre or guliyev or whoever it is finally goes 9.98 or 9.95 or whatever.
To me, Borzov’s times, Armin Harry’s times, et al, are intrinsically worth more than 9.95 today. I won’t feel a magic barrier has been broken or predict the London 2012 medal stand to be lilly-white. Taking the relative factors into account, I don’t think it will be anything truly groundbreaking, even for a white sprinter.
Again, hypotheticals, counterfactuals, and context is important – this year, Tyson Gay has run 19.58 this year, Bolt has run 19.59. Whose run do you think was truly more impressive, was worth more intrinsically?
Obviously Bolt’s run in Laussane .
So I, don’t think the eventual breaking of 10.00 will be a big deal. YOU do.
I was talking to Jake.
Sorry, I may be being a little dim here, but isn’t every trait we are born with determined by our genetic setup?
As for Aikines-Aryeetey, black athletes tend to peak much later than white athletes, I am pretty sure that this will be the only year that LeMaitre is faster than Harry.
Not just that but also because 100m divides nicely into ten 10s. It works out nicely to an average speed of 10m/s, which is apparently beyond white men for 100m, but not for the longer distance of 200m.
Not really. If the best drug enhancement system ever devised cannot get a white man under 10.00s (Borzov) nor the best sprint development programme primarily aimed at white sprinters (Shirvington), then I think that after 40 years we can say it is not possible. After all we are not talking about science or techology, there is no chemical enhancement (at least legal) nor scientific breakthrough that is going to allow a white man to break 10s. We are talking about the human body, and sadly evolution does not work that fast.
White people are still running at, or around the same times as they were almost 40 years ago. You can speculate with whatever variables you choose to, but the facts remain solid and constant.
And that is the sad thing, it isn’t. Should a miracle happen and a white man break 10.00s, it will have little or no impact, except on places like caste football, it is, after all, a 40 year old target.
I don’t think it will ever happen, so it is not something that I really need to worry about.
To the idea that 10.00 has been “regularly” breached in the past 40 years:
Between 1968 and 2000, 30 sprinters total did it (and no one between 1968 and 1977 AND the 1968 time being at altitude).
Between 2000 and present, 39 have.
10.00 is still impressive but it’s obviously been devalued quite a bit in the past 40 years.
This is another reason it won’t be a big deal when whichever white guy goes under 10.00 – it’s just not worth as much as it was 40, 20, or even 10 years ago.
Whatever the many reasons for this – improved tracks, training methods (which can’t be dismissed), shoes, the ubiquitous specter of PEDs, nutrition, increased length of careers, etc. – it just means that one must appreciate context for all of this.
Jesse Owens running 10.3 in 1936 is obviously more impressive than Asafa Powell doing the same the other day at the Crystal Palace meet. There’s no scientific way to do it but you look at F.A.T. making that 10.50 to 10.56, but then subtract time for the track, shoes, lack of real weight training etc etc etc.
The upshot is simply that Borzov’s 10.07 in 1972 is not worth the same thing as Cerutti’s 10.06 in 2009.
I’m not arrogant enough to say I know what it’s worth in modern terms but it’s just like monetary inflation – having a million dollars in 1930 certainly meant more than it means now.
Anyway, long story short:
running under 10 seconds was a much rarer occasion between 1968 and 2000 than it was between 2000 and 2009.
This does not, however, mean that sprinters of yesteryear were intrinsically or genetically or whatever slower.
I’m not even talking about white and black sprinters here anymore
(and I think that is such a warped and false dichotomy that it’s laughable and appreciate the efforts of some to be more precise with their categorizing)
I’m just saying that context, counterfactuals, hypotheticals, etc etc are important in any serious discussion.
Sure, there may only be something like 69 athletes (last time I counted) that have run under 10.00s, but many of them are doing it regularly. The likes of Greene and Powell have done it more than 50 times each and people expect it at the big events (every Olympic final since 1980) and also of the big names when they see them (it has been breached 17 times this year already).
But here you have to compare white and black, black sprinters have got faster since those days, whites have not, they still are running the same times as the sprinters of yesteryear.
Indeed if you look at the top five white sprinters of all time, and ignore the dubious time of Woronin, you see that a white sprinter only makes the top 5 once every decade or so. Lemaitre’s time is the fastest by a white man for almost 11 years, but it still only place him fifth.
10.00 (+2.0) Marian Woronin (POL) 09.06.198410.01A (0.0) Pietro Mennea (ITA) 04.09.1979
10.03A (0.0) Nicolas Macrozonaris (CAN) 03.05.2003
10.03 (-0.1) Matthew Shirvington (AUS) 17.09.1998
10.04 (0.2) Christophe Lemaitre (FRA) 24.07.2009
10.06A (+2.0) Johan Rossouw (RSA) 23.04.1988
Expect the next entrant in 2019. Even if you count or discount Woronin it is still 25/30 years to the top time(s), as I said, whites just aren’t getting any faster.
Have you seen Shirvington’s training program from the 10.03 era? Please tell me you were kidding about it being the best training program for white sprinters (?).
If you truly think it would require a miracle – not a slightly bigger tailwind – for Lemaitre to go .04 – .05 faster in the 100, I do not believe you are actually a follower of track and field.
That you think Shirvington’s program was worth anything is further evidence of this.
Bringing up PEDs in reference to Borzov is pointless.
Was he probably on something? Yes. But I make that assumption about nearly every top sprinter.
Mo Greene.
Mennea.
Kederis.
Ben Johnson.
Carl Lewis.
etc.
It’s sad and all that, but the reality seems to be that the people at the top all cheat. Ben Johnson was a cheater but he was also an amazing sprinter – he beat a bunch of people who were also later found to be cheating in 1988.
If Bolt were caught cheating next year, I would still think his times and wins were incredible.
There have been hundreds of sprinters who have used PEDs – only Bolt has run under 9.70.
Borzov was a rare athlete. His best times were faster than those of 99% of people who have ever sprinted, black or white. It was to be, what, nearly another decade after 10.00 was first broken that someone did it again.
Sub10 was not REGULARLY breached in the 60s, 70s, or 80s. 9.95 was not broken until 1983!!
10.07 in 1972 is worth intrinsically more than a 10.07 in 2009. This is not wishful thinking or caste-football style rearranging of facts. It requires a little thought, but so does realizing that Bolt *could* have run a much much better time than 9.69 in Beijing *if* he hadn’t celebrated so early, had a better reaction, a more favorable wind, etc. If you deny that, we have a much deeper disagreement than simply about track and field.
in the same vein, Shirvo *could* have run 10.03 under slightly different circumstances – to borrow from modal logic, the situation would have obtained in a relatively close possible world.
Anyway, I’m going to be out of town for the next week, so I won’t see the replies to this but I don’t feel like continuing this discussion. You truly believe that Lemaitre or Guliyev or whoever you consider “white” (is Patrick Johnson white? would a middle easterner be white? Shingo Suetsgo? etc.)
can run 10.00 but NOT 9.99, even if that 10.00 was run into a headwind, or in the rain, or whatever. Look at that again. You believe 10.00 is possible (if unlikely) but 9.99 simply COULD NOT happen.
Again, that indicates to me that you do not coach, follow, or understand athletics very well.
Shirvington ran his time in 1998, when Australia was gearing up for Sydney 2000. As far as I know millions were invested in Australian Institute of Sport in the run up to the Olympics giving it world class facilities and one of the best sprint programmes around, and Shirvington benefited from this.
There may have been better sprint programmes around, but not many that were predominately aimed at whites.
That’s right. Until they allow whites to run on downhill tracks no white will ever break 10s.
In ten years time when Joe Bloggs runs 10.05s, you’ll be having the same argument with someone else, but with slightly less enthusiasm.
You pin all your hopes on a particular white athlete running their perfect race again, but with a more favourable tail wind, better shoes etc. If you knew anything about track and field, you’d know that it rarely happens.
It’s ridiculous to say “because something did not happen so it’s impossible and won’t happen”
It’s a mind simplification.
Before Wariner no white had run below 44, before Bubka, no one had never vaulted 6m, before Jim Hines no one had never run a sub-10 etc…
I mean Fortunately, there is some people who don’t think like that, imagine all the inventions we would not have ?
-Hey dude, imagine if we connect all the computers together, and we will call that : “internet”
-Are you crazy man, It has neven been done before so it’s not possible.
That’s a caricature but what you say Charlie is also a caricature.
-Lemaitre runs 10’04
-Yes but Shirvington runs 10’03 and did not improve so a white man can’t.
Charlie, they are two completely different persons with differenet feeling, different body, different motivation.
Do you think like that in your life, at work ?
If someone give you a task which one of your coworker did not success, you say it’s impossible to do that?
10’04 means Christophe runs 96,60 m in 10 s.
He is 19 and 1 month (Shirvo was 19 and 11), he has a 2m50 stride (I don’t know Shrivo’ s strides but it was smaller for sure), he is skinny (while Shrivo was already muscular at the same age), he is technically bad (look how the shoulers move when he runs). Lemaitre is a bad starter but has an amazing top speed du to his height (6’3) and his strides (Shirvo was an amazing starter but his top speed was not amazing) and Lemaitre has a fighting spirit (he always run better when there is some concurrence).
We are talking about a kid who is world champion, european champion, who holds european record.
Shirvo was not talented as Lemaitre.
He has 7 years to earn 40 cm.
When he will do it, you will have to create a page “White actually can run” or something like that because I tell you that, it will happen.
But at Junior level only, white sprinters seem to be able to compete at Junior level, but not at senior.
As I have mentioned many, many times before, white sprinters seem to peak at a much earlier age. Shirvington ran his best time aged 19, Borzov was 22, as was Nicolas Macrozonaris; Johan Rossouw was 23. Pickering also ran his PB aged 19. Despite what you may believe (and people believed the same things when Shirvo ran his time), it will in all likelihood be his fastest ever time.
But many had come close and Wariner is still running today. Lots of people have jumped 6m since Bubka did it, they haven’t had to wait 40 years. Only nine men have gone under 44s, one of them was white, 69 men have gone under 10.00s, none of them white in over 40 years of trying and millions have tried.
I don’t believe that it is physically possible, it is just the wrong distance for whites. But if by some miracle one does, then yes I will create a new page, but by that time I will probably be long dead and it will mostly likely happen at the first Olympics on the moon.
sorry I meant 99’60 in 10 s
I bet with you Christophe will do it.
And if you are not closed-minded, you will start your page by :
“As Jim told me”
I put that page in my favourite.
It just a matter of time if more junior sprinters are of the ability of Lemairtre or Guliyev. Too many guys will be around the low 10.0X range for somebody to not have the right wind or weather conditions. This 40 years isn’t really accurate. If Borzov ran at altitude in 72′ he would have done a high 9.9X. Give any wind to Macro and he would have done this too. Also before about 86′ 9.9X wasn’t done at sea level. So really it’s about 25 years. Your point about a the worth of a 9.9X is valid though.
Thanks for the comment sprinter.
I have heard this ‘If only..’ argument so many times. If you remember that most 100m sprinters worldwide are white, then whites have had more than their fair share of opportunities for favourable winds, altitude etc.
Carl Lewis ran a 9.97 in 1983 which wasn’t at altitude I believe, but I take your point and it’s a fair one. I sometimes forget that although sub 10s times were run many times after 1968, they were mainly hand timed or altitude or both. But 25 years is still a long time.
When Lemaitre goes sub 10, I want to see Charlie change the title to White Men Can Sprint! Also have a big picture of Christophe Lemaitre. Then as other white sprinters achieve the same success, he can put them into a hall of fame. Change your article to supporting these kids. There are very few sites anywhere to support white athletes. They deserve the same respect black athletes get. Season is a wash but next year will be different. Didn’t live up to the expectations. I’m happy for Christophe & Ramil though. Thanks for reposting this discussion. It shows you are at least a little fair in restarting the debate. You will be wrong my friend. Just realize at the end of the day, diversity is good in sports. A few more white sprinters will add to the enjoyment of the events. Thank you and good day mate.
Craig
Craig, believe me if Lemaitre or anyone else breaks 10s, I will be posting about it. I won’t change this article though, I will create a new one and leave this as it is (with a link to the new one) – I don’t want to be accused of changing it to ‘I knew it all along…’
We’ll see what happens in Berlin. Despite my reservations, I don’t remember the last time that I looked forward to World Championships this much, I can barely remember the last few.
As I said on caste football forum, the psychological barrier is in your mind.
It’s a shame for you to support a french you said ?
So don’t do it, we don’t care and don’t need your support.
You’re French Canadian? That may be why you don’t get the humour, but it was tongue in cheek, as if supporting a Frenchman would be unBritish and would have to be done grudgingly (because the French normally see us Brits as self centered and arrogant ).
Kind of like the French admitting that there was such a thing as a world class English Chef!
I would have supported Lemaitre regardless of nationality as he is an underdog, and a young lad from a nation that doesn’t tend to dominate the event (like the USA, Jamaica etc). Depending on how he progresses in the heats, I am sure that he’ll have a lot of support in Berlin, everyone loves an underdog.
Besides, he’s one of Europe’s top sprinters and we’re all Europeans now anyway, apparently.
http://www.snelkracht.nl/index-en.php?article=33
MONDAY :
Morning session -Maximum strength –
Dynamic warm up (includes jgging, drills, general stretching and specific stretching exercises for this particular session.)
Power cleans – 90kg x 5 reps, 100kg x 3 reps 110kg x 2 reps 120kg x 1-2 reps
Bench press – same progression up to 130kg (286lbs)
Squats – up to 200kg (440lbs)
Various exercises for abs and back
Sprint drills and plyometrics at the track
Warm down including jogging, stretching and massage.
Afternooon session – stretching and swimming
TUESDAY :
Morning session – maximum velocity and starting acceleration –
dynamic warm up
technical runs: 6 x 60m
acceleration runs: 6 x 60m
starts – up to 10 starts over 30m
handicap starts (putting training partners in front 1m- 3m)
“flying sprints” or assistance sprints (down hill or using wind) 4-6 x 50m
warm down
Afternoon session : massage
WEDNESDAY :
Morning session – power strength
warm up
explosive weights ( performed as fast as possible with only 50% of max or
lighter for 3 x 10 reps)
power clean or snatch
bench press
speed squat
jumps from half squat
“Borzov” jumps
sprint drills and sprints at the track
warm down
Afternoon session – technical and tactical (video and biomechanical analyses)
THURSDAY
Morning session – speed endurance and bend technique (for 200m)
Dynamic warm up
technical drills and runs on the bend
sprint into bend and off the bend 4-6 x 60m
speed endurance – 2 sets (8 x 80m) at 95% intensity
technical tempo 75% intensity (2 x 250m)
warm down (jog and stretch)
Afternoon session – regular physio treatment
FRIDAY :
tactical preparation for competition and rest
SATURDAY :
Competition
SUNDAY :
Video analyses
/
.
.
It looks pretty awful to me. Whether it should be or not, given the funding and all, is of course a different question than “Is it bad.”
It’s incredibly draining. You’re counteracting everything you’ve done the previous day – “Max Strength” vs “Max velocity” ??? As if one isn’t inherent in the other?
This sort of daily Hi-Intensity work is not what you usually see in top-level sprinters.
If you want to postulate that it was the best possible workout aimed at a white man, go ahead, but please defend that statement.
What makes more sense –
(A)
to say that the morphological attributes that lead to swift running (bone density, specific fiber ratio ranges, hip width, lever length, etc etc etc.) are more likely to occur in people of West African heritage (and then only parts of west africa) than those of mediterranean, Eastern European, aboriginal, native american, etc heritage
and that the attributes/physical makeup required for VERY swift running (defined at whatever arbitrary time) are considerably rarer among any ethnic/racial/etc group
so that even if the distribution remains similar to simply “Swift running”, you will have exceptions to exceptions – thus, Matt Bruno could outrun Reggie Bush, Shirvington could outrun most other sprinters on the circuit in his 10.03 era, Lemaitre can outrun the vast majority of black USA collegiate sprinters (and this can be confirmed by looking at times)
ETC ETC
and so forth and so on on every level of running, so that while it might be extremely rare for anyone to run 10.50, and perhaps people of West African heritage are more likely to have the physical traits necessary to do so, ***it is still simply a matter of getting those attributes***
and, of course, those attributes are the same at 9.99 or 9.69 or whatever – but it takes a more rarefied combination of those traits to achieve those sorts of times and anyone (west african heritage or east african/european/aboriginal/south asian/pacific islander/north african/etc.) has a very very very very very low chance of being born with that combination, even if some of those groups have a relatively higher chance than others.
69 people have gone sub10, 1 of whom is not of w.a. heritage. What’s the distribution look like for 10.2? 10.5? 10.9? 11.5?
OR
(B)
“Whites” (is someone half-black and half-white black or white? is Patrick Johnson white? Koji Ito?) simply lack some magic trait that would otherwise put them over a human-designed barrier (because we could have defined seconds differently)?
It is not about morphology, distribution of specific traits, etc. – 10.00/9.991 is possible for everyone in the world, but 9.990 is physically impossible. One could get the combination of traits that allow them to run 9.991 but not the combination of traits that allow them to run 9.990.
What sounds more likely to you?
Interesting to read Shirvo’s training programme, but my point was that the Australian Sprint programme had more money (and therefore facilities etc) thrown at it than any other sprint programme predominately aimed at whites, before or since.
The link doesn’t mention where Shirvington trained, what other facilities were available, what monitoring and coaching was employed etc. As for the relative worth of the his training regime, unless you are a world class sprint coach, and I know that I am not, then you cannot really judge. Suffice to say, he’s the only white man to have gone sub 10.1s more than once, so clearly it must have some merits.
But again my point was the sprint programme, not specifically Shirvington’s personal training regime, was the best in the world aimed at white athletes. Very, very few athletes make a good living from sprinting, and only the top US athletes make a living from it. The rest of the world struggle by on state handouts and sponsorship, or part time work. From the looks of it, Shirvington didn’t have to worry about making ends meet either.
Except for the 20 or so that were faster.
You keep mentioning West African, but it isn’t that simple. For example Frankie Fredericks (PB 9.86s and 19.68s, which puts him joint 10th and 5th on the all time lists) is not West African, more South African. So clearly there is more to it than just being born in West Africa, or having descended from there. I am also not sure that ALL West Indians are descended from West Africans, the slave trade was far more widespread than that.
I think C sounds the most likely, that due to genetic differences, Africans (Sub-Saharan Africans) can run faster than any other race. Probably the same things that make then on average faster, also makes them on average not as fast swimmers.
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I also believe that there isn’t that much interest for track and field among the white europeans. You keep telling that more whites have tried then blacks. The reality is that the sport of sprinting is getting some of the best black athletes but is definitely not getting the best white athletes. There are more remunerative kinds of sports so when a boy has speed and stamina, the parents try to drive him towards football/soccer , baseball etc.
There is also the factor of not “having” to succeed at all costs which makes a white athlete more prone to stop training properly. It seems that having a richer family, and being a bit more spoiled vs black kids, takes away from their focus to train. Neverthless I think that we are close to seeing that barried broken, and at that point we will definitely start seeing more white boys taking up the sport. I hope this French kid will brake it soon . Christophe Lemaître , from the videos I have seen has a huge margin for betterment. He can get his stride even longer, and he can improve his starts, he needs more muscle on the shoulders and upper back, but then he’s a definite winner. For once we see a white sprinter with great top end speed and not only a 60 meter runner who can’t keep up in the last 30-40 meters.
in the past year he’s gone from 10.26 to 10.13 to 10.04 so he seems to get better at every outing. If he doesn’t break the 10s barrier this year, then definitely he will in the next 2 years.
It’s different from Shirvo’s style, they all seemed hanged, this kid is different, it looks like at 100m he has’t hit his top speed yet.
Looks like the Berlin track is pretty darn slow.
I just watched the first 12 heats of the eliminations, not even a sub 10, by far.
the young and skinny Lemaitre won his hit in 10,23 putting behind him 3-4 black guys.
All the heats besides one were won with 10,30 – 10-20.
We probably won’t see a white man under the 10s mark in the championships because of the track being .15 s slower then other tracks, but watching the guy run I can say I am pretty sure he’ll get it soon.
I don’t think that there is anything wrong with the track, the times are about average for heats. They were certainly much faster in the second round.
Shame about Lemaitre, was hoping for at least a sub 10.1s from him, or at the very least to see him run more than once, but he’s only 19 and I guess it is just inexperience. I think that he would have beaten Edgar for a place and got into the semi’s.
There was nothing bad about his opening round time at all, but I have heard from someone who’s in the semifinal that says the track is not on par with the Mondo tracks of most major venues.
The DQ was unfortunate but that’s one of those things you’ve got to deal with at any level of running. He looked to be flying in the last 50 of that opening round and I certainly saw 9.9x in the semi, assuming he made it through. That’s the sort of assumption that gets you trapped.
France’s 4×1 should still be relatively good, so he should hold it together. Pongon, Mbandjock, Lemaitre, and someone else could put together a very solid time (at least on paper).
I was disappointed but not surprised about Kim Collins’ elimination. He’s getting up there in age but there’s something really likable about that guy.
Lemaitre was looking a lot faster than he did in the Euro Juniors. Now he has some motivation at least. Damn shame.
I thought that Berlin’s was a mondo type track, just blue? Anyway, there is certainly nothing slow about that track, or god help the rest if the world when he does run a fast track!
It does look as though Collins’ best years are behind him, but he’s still only 33, some of the Caribbean Women are still running well into their 30s (Stirrup) and some even 40s (Ottey was still competitive in her 40s)
I don’t even know what to say.
Forget saying “will there ever be a white WR holder again?”
ask
Will there ever be another WR holder again?
I have a track and field WR book from 1997. They predict the WR in each event in 2015 at the end of every chapter.
The 100 was 9.79
We were talking about peak ages on the other thread; if Bolt peaks in that 25-30 (as opposed to now),……
I’ve got nothing to say. This was ridiculous.
I remember when Ben Johnson set the record of 9.79s thinking that it would stand for a long time, and still saw it as the optimum 100m mark after he was caught. It lasted just 11 years.
I think it will be the same, it seems amazing now but I can’t see it being more than a decade before it is beaten by someone other than Bolt.
That said, logically, there should be an amazing mark every few years set by a one off athlete that stands for a long, long time. But that doesn’t seem to happen in the 100m. Maybe this is it, but I’ve thought the same before.
Good point about Bolt’s age, keep forgetting that he is only 22/3.
It’s funny that you should call it ridiculous. The commentators and the press have been calling if phenomenal, amazing etc but I thought the same thing when he crossed the line. The 100m is just getting silly now.
Well I had to admit. Charlie called that one. Bolt killed his own world record and a White didn’t even make it to the finals. Someone posted that a White will run a sub-10 in the World Championships…maybe in 2011!
not bad though… Lemaitre can run sub 10 for sure, will that be enough to leave a serious mark in the event? Probably not.
We all saw how far back were the 10:00 runners like Dwain Chambers and Burns, and also the 9:93 runners like Dailey. The fact is that Bolt is just a freak, and a non-human. Gay is the best of the rest. Running 9:99-9:95 by a white man (lemaitre) in the next year or two won’t make much of a difference. These guys are running to come out of poverty as if they were fighting for life, their drive will be far superior to any white guy. Bolt’s records will stay for a LOOONG time, just like Pietro Mennea’s 19,72 stayed for almost 30 years, unbeaten by even Carl Lewis.
The 60s-70s were the years when the European countries were coming out of the war’s problems, running track was the cheapest and most direct way to do sport at a high level. Now Track and Field is for the developing countries, Ethiopia, Kenya, the caribbeans etc.
Even in the US there is less interest.
Look at my country Italy, we have only 60 million inhabitants, and yet, great soccer players, swimmers, skiers, have had top volley ball team for a long time, Ferrari’s Formula 1, Valentino Rossi, Simoncelli, Melandri, Biagi in motorbikes, then a top contender in many many other niche sports, now we have a female tennis player in the top 10, and many others I don’t want to mention. In track and field we’ve been going down because of the other sports get all the talented athletes. We only have a very good 50k walker (Alex Shwazer) who is Olympic champion, and we used to have Stefano Baldini, Olympic Marathon gold in Athens, now retired.
Everyone else is gone, the good old days of the old school are gone, like Mennea, Tilli, Fabrizio Mori, 400 meter obstacles world champion….
We do have a unreliable jumper in Andrew Howe, but he’s of US origin.
We also have a medal contender in the female high jump, but what’s sad is there is nobody at the horizon, the youngsters all think about getting rich fast, getting pussy, easy money and glamour, there isn’t the drive to become the best at something so competitive like track and field sport. They’d rather go kite surfing, or spear fishing, or rock climbing, or sky diving, all kinds of weird things.
Now, a question comes to mind: what is Jamaica known for, besides bob Marley, reggae and Bolt??
I think that a lot of white runner will find this more than a little disheartening.
I saw an interview today with Craig Pickering where he said that the time was ‘science fiction’ time. He said that he will just concentrate on beating his PB and aiming for the 10.00s mark, and forget about ever running 9.58s. And I think that that is the way that white sprinters in particular will think and acts as though 10.00s is the WR.
Paul Nash, in 1968, was hand timed at 10.0 at a meeting in Krugersdorp, South Africa. The margin of error with hand timing is an issue, but the error could have worked both ways.
Thanks for the comment. Armin Hary also ran 10.0s in 1960 but unfortunately both times work out at a auto timed 10.25s.
Nash also ran a hand timed 9.2s at 100 yards, which I believe is the fastest hand timed 100 yards by a white man. Works out at 9.44s auto timed though. Even so that puts him on a par with Calvin Smith for the 100 yards.
Allan Wells top 100 yards mark was a windy 9.2.
Maybe Paul Nash was the fastest white man, shame he didn’t run a auto 100m, or at least one that I can find.
My name is Chris Garpenborg and I ran 9,2 legal on several occasions.
Penn relays 1974.Dallas invitational 9,30 electronicly legal where I beat Don Quarry last time I looked I was white.
The only 100 yard runs I can find for you are the runs in El Paso and Tuscon in 1974. Both were 9.2s and manually timed. I couldn’t find the 9.30s electronic. The 9.30s electronic time would put you in the top 10 100 yards times of all time. The 9.2s put you as the fastest hand-timed white man over 100 yards, equal with Nash but Nash ran his in 1967. If it really is Chris Garpenborg, well done, if not he was still a great sprinter that I missed.
I’ll have to finish reading this another time …… but I have to point out that the late Gary Cadogan was black. He is named twice further up this page in a list of white European sprinters to receive doping bans …… he achieved most success as a 400m Hurdler. Cheers.
Thanks for the comment Mully.
Quite shocked about Gary Cadogan, had no idea that he had passed away. Terrible shame.
Quite right he was black, for some reason I got him confused with Jon Ridgeon, I think Ridgeon came back and ran the 400H around the same time as Cadogan and that was who I was thinking of.
Ridgeon never failed a drugs test however.
Well, after seeing Bold run,
The statement should read, No man can run besides Bolt. In fact the difference between him and the other black finalists is similar to that of the top black athletes to the top white athletes.
So what stops anyone from saying that only Bolt seems to posses the top speed to run sub 9,50 while no other athlete will ever be able to beat that mark?
A lot of people are. I am sure that in about 10 years others will be getting close, but for the foreseeable future, there is no athlete that can reach that mark, but Bolt.
I am a 31 yr old, black African Medical Doctor. I was born, raised and educated in the Sub-Saharan region.
I have actively searched-for and read a handful of articles and blogs about racial variations. I must commend Charlie for holding down one of the most riveting threads. The 10s barrier is absolutely intriguing but I am more interested in the broader qualities of interracial variation, especially intelligence.
I’d like to mention here that my PB over 100m at age 16 was 13.5s (manual). My best height jumped (and I was a High School sensation at the event) was 1.78m (landing onto sand). I did not pursue a career in athletics (!)
Rather, I understand Human Physiology and Disease to a great degree -this after all is my training. I also understand Einsteinian Relativity (both General and Special). I touch-type at ~65 wpm and find Jerry Seinfeld hilarious. The notion that blacks are under-achieving and unable to excel intellectually is more absurd than insulting.
I believe that in the final analysis, the explanation for our interracial variations are MULTIFACTORIAL (nature, nurture, etc). Anyone who proposes a single explanation is probably wrong.
To bolt 100m in 9.58s is magical. There has been no white sub 10s yet, but the laws of statistics are against the notion that it will never happen.
In the interim, we should thank the Whites for teaching us what 100m and 10s means!
Thanks for the comment Dikembe.
I agree. At school there were four black boys in my year, one had the fastest time for our year, 12.3s for 100m, another had the slowest time for 100m 20s (I kid you not, even the fat kid beat him), the other two were in between. So simply being black can’t be the only reason for great sprint speed, but it does seem to make it more likely.
I agree, a generation or two ago (at least in Britain), there didn’t seem to be any problem of under achieving amongst blacks; now the problem has also spread to young whites, so clearly cannot be related to race, or intellectual capability, but other factors.